tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post1706004948320527161..comments2024-03-28T17:59:09.906+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: The Homogenization of D&DUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-73647152173641345312018-06-27T08:14:12.101+08:002018-06-27T08:14:12.101+08:00What do you mean by homogenization, then? If you&...What do you mean by homogenization, then? If you're talking about ideas being traded around, then I agree with you. If you're talking about there being fewer styles in general, then I disagree.WrongOnTheInternethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307593854612561638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-22673152773229926792018-06-27T04:42:04.469+08:002018-06-27T04:42:04.469+08:00Another example is tattoos and general fashion sen...Another example is tattoos and general fashion sense. All football players basically look the same now. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-35554782209139203642018-06-27T04:38:37.269+08:002018-06-27T04:38:37.269+08:00You mention cross-pollination and picking up each ...You mention cross-pollination and picking up each others' ideas - that's homogenizing. It doesn't mean everybody is exactly the same. <br /><br />If you don't like the sport or art metaphors, how about music? Go to any major city in the world and people will be listening to similar music, by and large. Does that mean everybody just listens to The Beatles? Of course not. There are lots of different styles. But they're still homogenizing. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-44110996910124619292018-06-27T03:25:25.391+08:002018-06-27T03:25:25.391+08:00Of course, ironically Against The Wicked City itse...Of course, ironically Against The Wicked City itself is a massive contrast to the OSR trend.Owen Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02033345001593862263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-70441392139373599932018-06-26T03:00:05.451+08:002018-06-26T03:00:05.451+08:00Watching the world cup it struck me that your homo...Watching the world cup it struck me that your homogenization thought might be more analogous to RPGs when it comes to goal celebrations. There are no competitive reasons to homogenize, yet we see the same damn half-dozen things every time someone scores a goal. <br /><br />It's bizarre to me that players from Japan run to the corner and slide on their knees exactly like, say, Serbian players do. <br /><br />I bet celebrations were a hell of a lot more diverse 50 years ago. Ivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923725063649465366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-51867924579354270412018-06-24T09:37:09.927+08:002018-06-24T09:37:09.927+08:00I've been running and playing with a few diffe...I've been running and playing with a few different groups over the past 9 years, and haven't really seen any signs of homogenization. Every DM (or Ref) has their own, fairly unique style of running. There's been cross-pollination; you run with the same people long enough, you pick up some of each others ideas, but the styles I've seen are as distinct as primary colors. This might be just my little corner of the hobby, but we were all around to start playing as 3rd ed was turning to 4th and you could go on the internet and get a sense of what people expected out of the game.<br /><br />D&D has always been more of a private thing than sports; there's no "World Cup" for D&D that demands standardization. You have a comment about art being "a tale of homogenization", but I'm not sure that means all that much. When something as diverse as art is called "homogenized", the word is meaningless. Might as well call everything homogenized at that point.WrongOnTheInternethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307593854612561638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-90498154307149057282018-06-24T01:20:44.039+08:002018-06-24T01:20:44.039+08:00In part I think it's because most people in th...In part I think it's because most people in those spheres are either copying each others (doing the same homogenization that your post mention is so common in 'modern' circles) or because there's a desire to avoid Tolkien and to focus more on those earlier fantasy writers combined with a desire to create darker settings which do things no mass market, mass appeal game does.<br /><br />So you end up with this:<br />http://udan-adan.blogspot.com/2017/10/here-be-cannibals-mapping-generic-osr.html<br /><br />There's nothing inherently wrong with the overly dark and horror-laden, depressing and nightmare-inducing Dark Fantasy worlds. There's a reason people love Dark Souls, after all but it isn't entirely wrong that there is a certain 'DNA' to the OSR blogosphere settings and publications.<br />Bob Somethinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13638406211956979341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-16343574131313278032018-06-23T06:37:30.323+08:002018-06-23T06:37:30.323+08:00Speaking as someone who doesn't watch football...Speaking as someone who doesn't watch football, I'd argue that football matches are far more homogeneous than D&D games. Yes, there are differences, but you have to know football to recognize them. You don't really have to know D&D to tell that one table plays the game a certain way and another plays a vastly different way.Ozymandiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01065642299277380465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-84405793546379169102018-06-23T06:32:30.268+08:002018-06-23T06:32:30.268+08:00I know at least three "young" bloggers w...I know at least three "young" bloggers who could easily be described as old-school or OSR. That may not represent much of the community, but it suggests to me that there are newcomers who recognize the benefits of playing older versions.Ozymandiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01065642299277380465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-82893359199371575412018-06-23T00:44:13.265+08:002018-06-23T00:44:13.265+08:00Yes, music or art. The point isn't that everyb...Yes, music or art. The point isn't that everybody wants to be Bruno Mars. But a lot of people want to make contemporary pop music within its tropes. Just like not everybody is going to want to watch Will Wheaton but the tropes of that kind of play style will be an influence. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-22181777389508700052018-06-23T00:42:39.292+08:002018-06-23T00:42:39.292+08:00It would have if there was an internet back then, ...It would have if there was an internet back then, I think.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-68983182100059666432018-06-23T00:41:53.771+08:002018-06-23T00:41:53.771+08:00I think art is an apt comparator. The tale of art ...I think art is an apt comparator. The tale of art is a tale of homogenization. Not around one style but around certain styles. People most decidedly do not just "start doing their own thing" when they pick up a pile of art supplies. They start reproducing what they think "art" is, which is informed by a huge weight of cultural expectation and personal experience of art which is itself informed by a huge weight of cultural expectation. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-66692207865659788912018-06-22T23:24:28.784+08:002018-06-22T23:24:28.784+08:00Eh; I don't see it happening. D&D is a to...Eh; I don't see it happening. D&D is a toy for creatives; it's like a pile of art supplies. When you pick such things up for the first time, you don't go looking around for what other people are doing with them, you immediately start doing your own thing and stay enthralled with doing that for a long, long time. <br /><br />Also, the reach of niche internet communities is (as always) vastly overestimated. Most gamers will never know about, care about, or join the forum/blog/social media gamer-sphere. I suspect the ratio of hardcore online gaming fans to casual players who just play is quite close to the ratio of forever!DMs to players-only.John Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-35205403962680537582018-06-22T08:25:47.086+08:002018-06-22T08:25:47.086+08:00While I won't argue with your hypothesis that ...While I won't argue with your hypothesis that the internet/social media may be leading to homogenization of D&D playing styles, I do question the comparison to a sport. D&D lacks the singular, objective definition of success that is fundamental to sports: scoring more than the opposition. Therefore, if a particular style proves to be objectively successful, it will be widely adopted, until another style develops to counter it.<br /><br />The definition of success in D&D is far vaguer. The best I can think of is this: are you and your friends enjoying the game enough to want to play again? With this as the sole parameter of success, there is room for a wide variety of stylistic differences. There is no need for my gaming group to switch to tiki taka just because Will Wheaton or Mandy Morbid plays that way.<br /><br />I think music might be a more relevant comparison for determining homogenization. D&D kids these days might very well watch Will Wheaton play and adjust their game accordingly, but it is entirely possible that they'll say "that looks lame" and ignore him. Just as a lot of people are grooving to Bruno Mars and thinking "I wanna be like him," while others are not interested.<br /> Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-14198639616340557002018-06-21T17:30:19.489+08:002018-06-21T17:30:19.489+08:00AD&D was supposed to homogenize D&D into a...AD&D was supposed to homogenize D&D into a consitent tournament style game with it's publication. That didnkt actually happen.JDsivrajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674833512849495283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-76831478660589472592018-06-21T04:22:22.845+08:002018-06-21T04:22:22.845+08:00I'm not sure whether homogeneity of systems is...I'm not sure whether homogeneity of systems is good or bad. Good for portability and moving between groups, but bad for variety.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-56626790333460332002018-06-21T04:21:36.164+08:002018-06-21T04:21:36.164+08:00I think OSR homogenization is as much about tone a...I think OSR homogenization is as much about tone as it is play style. There is a predominantly "dark", somewhat ironic, horror-inflected vibe to most if not all OSR materials I would say.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-73469101951566759942018-06-21T04:20:03.265+08:002018-06-21T04:20:03.265+08:00Yes, those are all good points, especially on the ...Yes, those are all good points, especially on the orcs. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-15452094125060564842018-06-20T14:06:05.928+08:002018-06-20T14:06:05.928+08:00This is why i build my own classes and progression...This is why i build my own classes and progressions. I pretty much rebuilt the game for these kinds of reasons. Its all Scoundrels and Martial Artists and Void Mages.<br />Super funky races and settings too. Goblins, no hobbits. But still homogenous in basic systems, which is maybe a strength?joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04839488102808252443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-12866091568288581582018-06-20T11:17:22.553+08:002018-06-20T11:17:22.553+08:00I think homogenization will happen, but because D&...I think homogenization will happen, but because D&D reaches a smaller audience with less connection points, it'll take time. I'm ambivalent about that prospect because I'll always run my games how I want them to, with or without the influence of others.<br /><br />It's a good point you make. Using a snapshot of this community right now, I'd be interested in seeing how the OSR changes in the next 10 years.The Oblidisideryptchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01045051609040990435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-41086242782665917542018-06-20T04:56:23.257+08:002018-06-20T04:56:23.257+08:00There's been a steady homogenisation of D&...There's been a steady homogenisation of D&D through the growing homogeneity of its illustrations and 'fluff'. Take the humble kobold. In the first edition of D&D, it was a weaker breed of goblin (or at least you could infer as much from Chainmail). Then it became a sort of horned dog-man in BECMI and AD&D. And now EVERYONE KNOWS (apparently) that it's a little lizardman that has a winged variant, is good at traps and is connected with dragons.<br /><br />There's a similar path for most of the staple monsters of D&D. What's particularly odd is where you have D&D monsters being homogenised with those from other games. So, the D&D orc begins life as the Tolkien orc (pretty much - right down to the insignia used). Then it becomes the pig-man of the early supplements and the AD&D Monster Manual. By second-edition AD&D, though, it's showing the distinct influence of the scrawny Warhammer orc, as envisaged by the Perrys, Kev Adams and John Blanche. <br /><br />Now it looks much like the newer, hulking Warhammer orc and the Warcraft orc (itself influenced by Warhammer). The stats have followed suit: without warning, orcs have become stronger than hobgoblins, which they weren't in the early editions of the game. <br /><br />One effect of this is that players are often more resistant to reskinning ("Whaddaya mean the orc's not green?"), as there are many more things that EVERYONE KNOWS about D&D/RPGs/fantasy as a genre.<br /><br />All the media trends you discuss above are certainly true. But I think they're only accelerating a trend that's been underway for a long time. At least the likes of Whitehack and the Black Hack stick defiantly to the traditional method of giving familiar creatures simply a name and a statline. I trust the latest edition of Tunnels and Trolls still does that.JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964744140140515737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-45297905087198431432018-06-19T17:21:12.336+08:002018-06-19T17:21:12.336+08:00One doesnt ask questions with answers you dont wan...One doesnt ask questions with answers you dont want to hear.<br />kimbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12961382206655820923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-52873086367869836502018-06-19T15:44:47.751+08:002018-06-19T15:44:47.751+08:00I'm not saying two games will be exactly alike...I'm not saying two games will be exactly alike or that once you try it you'll have seen all it has to offer. No two football matches are exactly alike and I still enjoy watching it. The point is that approaches to playing it have become homogenized, and the same will likely happen to D&D.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-5249548393009158232018-06-19T15:43:41.768+08:002018-06-19T15:43:41.768+08:00Sure, just like no two games of football are the s...Sure, just like no two games of football are the same.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-40300242725583341962018-06-19T15:43:15.647+08:002018-06-19T15:43:15.647+08:00That's kind of the point. They don't reall...That's kind of the point. They don't really naval-gaze over gaming techniques. They copy each other and their role models and what they see on the internet and TV. Your kids may not show any interest in watching streamed games online, but some will, and they'll tend to reproduce what goes on in them. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.com