tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post2496235665873920917..comments2024-03-28T22:10:04.089+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: The Minimalist SettingUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-51637321479523334242016-02-25T05:34:24.052+08:002016-02-25T05:34:24.052+08:00The Mazes and Minotaurs retroclone (complete with ...The Mazes and Minotaurs retroclone (complete with faux history of the game) is the perfect example of your point. The class-list, races, monsters and magic of this game alone will make a greek mythological fantasy setting implied for all DM's running this game: http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.htmlArjenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15273630151155513646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-76027125566773773052013-08-03T01:36:57.126+08:002013-08-03T01:36:57.126+08:00I think part of the problem is that many such supp...I think part of the problem is that many such supplements aren't really supplements, but poorly disguised campaigns. So parts of them are precisely focused, because that was a keep the GM actually used, and like a Son of a Tolkien he isn't going to just throw that stuff out when he can sell it. <br /><br />If you've ever designed your own world from scratch, you find it's a constant time struggle between big picture and what you need by tonight. So for instance in my Insane City Mark II, I have some neighborhoods where literally every NPC is fleshed out, because a party used to shack up there. I even have a sketch of local street urchin politics, as it mattered when a cult attacked them one dark night in revenge for some casual looting they'd done. Others are as vague as "Wizard Order, Dickheads, like fire." I needed that neighborhood detailed, so when some long term feud degenerated into a riot or whatever,I was ready. The brief description was just for what happens when someone decides to cut down that alley to lose pursuit. The same is true for the greater land it's set in. Sure I made an effort to sketch out each kingdom and even produced a number of absurd political alliance maps, but most kingdoms are hazy places with the only map being a blow up of the over map. Some have gotten used for quests, so they're detailed.<br /><br />So what you see there is just someone using his personal game as filler, rather than a professional attempt to craft a usable product.Gort's Friendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08684913847135419951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-8914582385963588702013-08-03T01:03:05.713+08:002013-08-03T01:03:05.713+08:00I know what you mean. I once ran a Gamma World cam...I know what you mean. I once ran a Gamma World campaign in which metal was extremely scarce (pre-dragonlance), based on the idea that once it rusts away, it's not like we're ever mining more in a post-apocalypse world and lot was tied up in futuristic alloys, etc.., Sounds like a cool idea, right? It'll turn a good long sword into a real prize. Take ten minutes to revise the weapons list and come up with a rule about bone and stone blades shattering on a 1. Except that is a lot of shattering. All of a sudden,characters are scavenging weapons like gold, carrying backpacks of bone swords and flint knives. Gort's Friendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08684913847135419951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-84447062973474083182013-08-03T00:53:28.720+08:002013-08-03T00:53:28.720+08:00I've revised my reply to this more than once n...I've revised my reply to this more than once now and decided that by bone of contention is your decision of what is fluff. The problem is partly that it is all fluff. That what you lay out as being the bare bones of D&D can just as well be labelled fluff. Remove the races, it's no longer Tolkienesque, you can easily claim it's all post Howard then. Weapons? Well the weapons are only a suggestion, really who has ever enjoyed the more obscure polearms? Trim those down to ten weapons, you can just as easily use D&D to run an Og the caveman adventure. Trim down the monster list to the mundanes and the occasional supernatural, trim the spells lists and magic items, you can just as easily run a campaign centered about Brother Cuthbert of York, Spiritual Franciscan Ghostbuster and freelance exorcist. <br /><br />D&D can be a pretty versatile game system, if you choose it to be. At it's heart, under the tables which declare 70% of all magical swords to be long swords, it's still just Chainmail, a set of rules for pre-gunpowder combat coupled with a fantasy setting supplement. <br /><br />All of what you describe as fluff is just basically short cuts. A Cliff notes version which lets someone run, as example, a cyberpunk themed game, without submerging themselves in the sub-genre. The thing to realize though is that the fluff is always just suggestions, it's not engraved in stone. It's just that handy crutch we all need sometimes. Most of that fluff is just a way to sell product, to justify you paying the cash. The reality is you can play D&D off the average Dungeon master's screen, and at least one of those six panels usually just has a big dragon on it.<br /><br />If you run campaigns, it's always a unique world, with high or low levels of magic. Wizards as common as cobblers or as scarce as neurosurgeons. Sometimes it is continual light sticks for sale in the markets along side an assortment of dried unicorn parts, other times that Ogre in the Woods has never been seen before. You've got pages of your own fluff, because god damn it, you have a reason for all those brigands in the woods who keep showing up in random encounters. So you need to have your list of local heraldry, because you want them to pick up that the Big Boss is moving his way towards the city.<br /><br />Then there are the games where you run everything stock, because it's that night and well everyone knows the setting, so we can't be bothered with why there are no halflings in the world, because well Bob has a halfling character he wants to play and he's in town this weekend. <br /><br /><br /><br />Gort's Friendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08684913847135419951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-11236350966508749002013-07-26T00:45:03.496+08:002013-07-26T00:45:03.496+08:00In what sense am I talking about "bare bones ...In what sense am I talking about "bare bones crap that anyone could produce"? Why do I need to caveat everything with the phrase, "If it is done well"? That's obvious. <br /><br />As for the rest of your post, essentially you're saying that everybody who uses only the core D&D rules is pretty incompetent, because they don't contain fluff. This after you've just this week put up a piece by Gary Gygax on how to start a D&D campaign. Either you're just literally typing without thinking or you're being deliberately obtuse for your own satisfaction - I can't work out which it is. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-35014493363845261772013-07-25T18:49:43.622+08:002013-07-25T18:49:43.622+08:00We are in topsy turvy land here. You appear to be ...We are in topsy turvy land here. You appear to be claiming that a setting like Glorantha and Paul Jaquay's Modules because they are rich in detail are therefore 'common denominator' or for most people - Harry Potter stuff - and yet some bare bones crap that anyone could produce which doesn't offend experienced gamers by having too much detail or 'fluff' is something to 'aspire to' - Jack Vance stuff. <br /><br />The so called experienced fluff-intolerant gamers who need someone else's bare bones material to be creative sound pretty incompetent to me. It also comes across that a 'campaign' for them lasts about six hours of game time before they need to get another fix and start up a new 'campaign'.<br /><br />The main reason to read detailed settings is to see what others have managed to achieve to push your own creativity, not to use the material directly.<br /><br />>>My definition of "fluff" is simply that it is the non-rules portion of a game book: the background, the descriptions, the fiction, etc.<<<br /><br />Setting material and even bare bones random tables are usually published supplementary to rules. Are these all fluff?Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-63531161324520883522013-07-25T17:28:36.868+08:002013-07-25T17:28:36.868+08:00That's not what I was referring to. You said &...That's not what I was referring to. You said "most DMs buy gaming stuff [because] they can't give life and depth to a campaign setting themselves", with the implication being that only fully fleshed-out campaign settings are worth producing.<br /><br />I'm saying that attitude would lead us to assume that if "most people" like the lowest-common denominator thing, there's no reason to aspire to anything else.<br /><br />My definition of "fluff" is simply that it is the non-rules portion of a game book: the background, the descriptions, the fiction, etc.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-65096021962977125672013-07-25T16:18:55.330+08:002013-07-25T16:18:55.330+08:00I wasn't implying that the elements need to co...I wasn't implying that the elements need to coexist in any way, shape or form; I was only speaking about their existence in the game. In this sense, the core D&D rules don't provide anything at all (are orcs allied with hobgoblins? do dragons like to eat elves?) <br /><br />BUT the fact that all the pieces come in one way or another from myths, legends, and in general from "common" popular knowledge, provides a substantial depth which you don't get "out of the box" with a random approach like Pars Fortuna, or even something like Tekumel (without any explanation about the setting.)<br /><br />I think D&D is so good, and was so successful, because it pays lip service to this shared common knowledge. So it makes totally sense what Noisms suggest to replace the D&D mythology with an Arabic mythology, and the game would still work "out of the box." But that's as good as core D&D only insofar as the people at the table share knowledge about Arabic myths and legends. Try selling such a game to, say, a Chinese audience, whose mind is "programmed" to find patterns from the Chinese legends.<br /><br />Can you do the same with a random game, without this "shared language" about elves, djinn, etc.? Sure you can, as your mind "fills the gaps" but I believe the result will be far less "powerful." Information must have some value.<br /><br />What's a setting, then? I think it arises the moment you create relationships between the elements described in the rules, and how these relationships have the potential to affect the players' actions.<br /><br />Now, whether the setting emerges during play, or you have something prepared and go on from there, it's more a matter of taste, I'd say. For example, I enjoy the Dragonlance setting because it provides a specific mythology for the existence of all the races (ogres are the firstborn, not elves!), how they came to be (many races are the result of Chaotic sorcery,) their relationships, historical events that shaped those relationships (the human Kingpriest almost destroyed the world,) a particular view of the supernatural etc.<br /><br />I was intrigued by that article written by Gary, since I have been thinking about creating a more S&S-ish campaign based on B/X, and I didn't want to go the route of changing the rules, since I want the game to still be recognisable as "D&D", rules-wise. So, following Noisms' idea of a minimalist setting, how do you change the themes? In the end I chose Leiber's Lankhmar, so the game will still be D&D, with the following elements picked from D&D:<br />- Magic-users practice Black Wizardry; they are always Chaotic. At some point sorcery corrupts their bodies and spirits. They are commonly known as Black Wizards.<br />- Clerics practice White Wizardry; they are always Lawful. They are commonly known as White Wizards. They don't get their powers from communion with Gods, which, as far as people know, may simply not exist at all. You can be a priest without being a cleric.<br />- Demihumans do not exist. I was thinking of "reskinning" them to actually use the classes in place of other human cultures, for example elves could define the Lords of Quarmall; halflings could be Mingols.Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-66316436166847618662013-07-25T15:45:48.978+08:002013-07-25T15:45:48.978+08:00You should like 13th Age, then. Almost any single ...You should like 13th Age, then. Almost any single facet of the game is commented by the designers.Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-17583268443570857222013-07-25T08:18:27.841+08:002013-07-25T08:18:27.841+08:00Firstly, I think it's a fallacy to suggest tha...Firstly, I think it's a fallacy to suggest that D&D provides a "raison d'etre" for its elements to coexist. Why do humans, Tolkien-based elves, halflings, and orcs, Poul Anderson's troll, monsters from Greek mythology like centaurs and harpies, not to mention golems, owl bears and black puddings, all share a setting? D&D doesn't explain. You have to figure out how all these things relate to each other in your campaign, <i>if that matters</i> - because it can still be fun if you don't bother. The implied setting of D&D was created by chucking a load of disparate ingredients in a bowl and mixing well. <i>Pars Fortuna</i> was generated randomly, but frankly its constituent parts make just as much sense and hang together just as well. The only difference is that they're unfamiliar. Which I'm saying can be (but isn't necessarily) a good thing.<br /><br />Secondly, I'm happy to start playing without establishing a "raison d'etre" or a "proper setting". I'm not even sure what a "proper setting" is. I wouldn't classify the game world as a "void" because I'm human and my mind is hardwired to make connections and patterns, but I don't feel the need to force it. The setting, like the story, emerges from actual play, and from interaction with the players, rather than a lot of <i>a priori</i> work on my part that may or may not turn out to be relevant to the game at the table. (I didn't always think this way; it took the OSR and especially things like the gloriously spartan yet richly evocative <i>Towers of Krshal</i> to make me appreciate the advantage of "much-in-little". It should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that the foregoing is purely my personal preference.)<br /><br />Thirdly, and most importantly, we played <i>Pars Fortuna</i> tonight and I think it's fair to say everyone enjoyed it tremendously. I'll probably say something about it on my blog presently. Right now, for fear of straying too far from noisms's original topic, I'll stop my blethering.<br /><br />ClawCarverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07236809815213343281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-46460109385034667782013-07-25T05:39:49.235+08:002013-07-25T05:39:49.235+08:00No, I really don't know what is meant by '...No, I really don't know what is meant by 'fluff' or the vast majority of gaming jargon. Some people use fluff as an instant insult, others give the impression it means padding or longwindedness, like the Necromancer Wilderlands versus the Judges Guild version but it seems also to be used by experienced gamers who just are annoyed if they read anything more than bullet points in a supplement as if they want an author to go half way with ideas at most.<br /><br />Personally I am interested in high quality writing in games regardless of whether it is dense or lengthy and atmosphericKenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-78675223994906394302013-07-25T05:32:55.879+08:002013-07-25T05:32:55.879+08:00Well, Pars Fortuna is different because let's ...Well, Pars Fortuna is different because let's not forget, it was assembled <i>at random</i>.<br /><br />I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a writer implying a setting that he has put a great deal of thought into in terms of theme. Somebody else cited the obvious example of Arabian Nights. Replace the standard D&D classes, monsters, spells, magic items, etc. with ones more evocative of Arabic culture (you could literally just change the names) and, hey presto! you have a core ruleset which implies an Arabian Nights setting, rather than a pseudo-Tolkienesque one. How would that be any different for those of us with "pathetically withered creative abilities" than standard D&D? Create a dungeon with a town next to it. Except now it's an Arabian dungeon with a djinni at the bottom rather than a dragon, and the town is a tent-town around a desert oasis. Bingo. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-42558803123314820652013-07-25T05:28:20.287+08:002013-07-25T05:28:20.287+08:00Perhaps, but that's like saying most people re...Perhaps, but that's like saying most people read Harry Potter so what's the point selling books by Jack Vance?noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-6962587671703005902013-07-25T05:25:31.570+08:002013-07-25T05:25:31.570+08:00I'm not against game designers including an in...I'm not against game designers including an introduction or epilogue explaining why they designed things the way they did. In fact I prefer that.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-65889442172933918362013-07-25T05:24:32.868+08:002013-07-25T05:24:32.868+08:00I take a less bleak view than that. I think a good...I take a less bleak view than that. I think a good, imaginative writer will be able to imbue his rules with flavour in such a way that nobody will use them to create worn ideas and concepts. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-74635071316049353662013-07-25T05:21:27.999+08:002013-07-25T05:21:27.999+08:00I agree with Antonio -- noism's idea is intere...I agree with Antonio -- noism's idea is interesting, but it only works for people who overflow with creative energy. Those of us with pathetically withered creative abilities are often not capable of effectively doing the same job.Ivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923725063649465366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-29044499993478071892013-07-25T02:52:11.344+08:002013-07-25T02:52:11.344+08:00I thought the reason most DMs buy gaming stuff is ...I thought the reason most DMs buy gaming stuff is that they can't give life and depth to a campaign setting themselves, for time reasons or because they don't read books and don't know anything.<br /><br />What is the definition of 'fluff' separate from implications of shit quality in writing and ideas?Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-43702650168505228272013-07-24T22:22:56.253+08:002013-07-24T22:22:56.253+08:00It reminded me of this post:
http://zzarchov.blogs...It reminded me of this post:<br />http://zzarchov.blogspot.hu/2013/02/adventure-convert-o-tronica-9000.htmlYnas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-89262206774025731812013-07-24T15:30:31.411+08:002013-07-24T15:30:31.411+08:00That's roughly how the recent 13th Age rpg wor...That's roughly how the recent 13th Age rpg works. They give you a bare-bones setting/toolkit, with "icons" (i.e. relevant NPCs) which polarise the conflicts in the setting. But there's a catch: to make the toolkit fully usable, they have resorted to icons which ARE cliches: The Emperor, The Dwarf King, The Elf Queen, The High Druid, The Diabolist etc. Everyone familiar with fantasy tropes will already have a clear idea of what these might be. This makes it far easier for the DM to create a setting; and I suppose that's the point of a toolkit: make things easier, not more difficult.Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-4681900269776157242013-07-24T15:25:36.903+08:002013-07-24T15:25:36.903+08:00I suppose this means you are totally willing to bu...I suppose this means you are totally willing to build up some "raison d'etre" for all those weird races, or are you going to leave them in a "void"? The appeal of using elves, dwarves and halflings is that with just a few lines of explanations in the game ("this is an elf") you have conveyed a boatload of information, and generated expectations. With just a few lines of Pars Fortuna racial descriptions...you have told me nothing. This means that YOU as a DM have a potentially huge burden in devising a proper setting. If this is what you want from the game, then it's a win. Personally, I find such an approach distasteful, and not very useful, as I usually DON'T want to waste time creating a setting if I can find something else ready for use and adaptation.Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-86339501242103328912013-07-24T15:02:46.404+08:002013-07-24T15:02:46.404+08:00Arguably it should have explanations of why the ru...Arguably it should have explanations of why the rules are the way they are. For example, explaining that not having non-human PC races is an attempt to mimic a particular kind of fiction.<br /><br />That way people won't think a particular feature is an omission or mistake.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-25224085895958762202013-07-24T06:23:46.310+08:002013-07-24T06:23:46.310+08:00I think the problem/feature is that the most clich...I think the problem/feature is that the most cliché things are the ones most easily communicated. Because the implied setting is based on the "common knowledge", things without proper explanation (for example a setting) tend to gravitate towards cliché or catch-all or both.<br /><br />That's the reason there are zombies everywhere, but the "original concept" of zombies as servants and/or dangerous but compelling strangers is lost. And that's why we have fantasy full of tolkien-esque trappings, but none of it's moral or philosophical qualities/flaws.<br /><br />As far as I can see, standard D&D displays all the reasons WHY setting is valuable - for one by the ways it's been used (or misused, if one adheres to the notion that standard D&D tells us enough by implications to make us play in fantastical and rather similar worlds straight out of the box).<br /><br />So no - we cannot only communicate flavour through clichés. But if we say nothing, worn ideas and concepts will do the rest of the talking. And that's the problem.Olav Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14151758541523612837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-40507462971060395632013-07-24T06:13:49.458+08:002013-07-24T06:13:49.458+08:00Aye, that's the one. I can't agree with An...Aye, that's the one. I can't agree with Antonio's remarks (above) about blandness because when I got hold of the <i>Pars Fortuna</i> book and read it, I couldn't stop grinning, and I've been itching to run it for ages. Seems to me it has all the benefits of deviation from "standard" fantasy fodder that you might get from <i>Empire of the Petal Throne</i> or <i>Skyrealms of Jorune</i> ("We've never encountered this thing before and we're not sure how to deal with it") but, crucially, without the reams of canonical setting data that can be off-putting to potential players and especially GMs of those games. Anyway, the proof of the pudding, etc., etc. We'll see how it goes tomorrow.ClawCarverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07236809815213343281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-86018446951263454512013-07-24T05:50:00.066+08:002013-07-24T05:50:00.066+08:00I don't like the idea that we can only communi...I don't like the idea that we can only communicate flavour through cliche. Doesn't that feel a bit defeatist to you?noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-75203738670555944462013-07-24T05:47:08.249+08:002013-07-24T05:47:08.249+08:00If the result is bland, so be it. The trick is cre...If the result is bland, so be it. The trick is creating a vibrant implicit setting with strong themes.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.com