tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post3251105337778435697..comments2024-03-29T06:16:21.012+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: D&D Combat is More Abstract Than You ThinkUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-37048348469179556442016-02-16T09:29:16.258+08:002016-02-16T09:29:16.258+08:00Edgewise: Brendan links to a blog post discussing ...Edgewise: Brendan links to a blog post discussing abstracting missiles below, though the link is outdated. It's <a href="http://www.necropraxis.com/2012/09/16/abstracting-missiles/" rel="nofollow">here</a> now.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-21266182352418838582016-02-15T18:33:44.778+08:002016-02-15T18:33:44.778+08:00I've seen different games suggest dynamic comb...I've seen different games suggest dynamic combat round lengths, but I think that can get a bit weird without also equally abstract position and movement. Then it gets tricky to answer questions like how many shots can an archer get on a charging goblin.Edgewisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01975570824983584330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-27477664409705430212013-09-05T11:53:21.526+08:002013-09-05T11:53:21.526+08:00I'd go with Tiny, yeah.I'd go with Tiny, yeah.David Larkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04133630988557116729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-26103592684337414962013-09-05T11:47:16.010+08:002013-09-05T11:47:16.010+08:00according to the RMFRP's Creatures and Monster...according to the RMFRP's Creatures and Monsters, Pixies' little swords are daggers with a -50 penalty to attacks. (Due to size, and Pixies' lack of strenght). I suppose a spoon could be simulated by using the club attack table with a -25 (half of the penalty, since the Sheriff is full-sized). But then you'd use the basic "Krush" critical table. Or maybe you could use the "Tiny" attack table?<br /><br />is that good enough David?Michttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02363668416664911106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-48084861526366885452013-09-03T11:38:20.052+08:002013-09-03T11:38:20.052+08:00The short answer is that it doesn't square wit...The short answer is that it doesn't square with healing and they really didn't think it through...Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-28268170366978287352013-09-03T11:37:32.605+08:002013-09-03T11:37:32.605+08:00My (rather acerbic) response to this is here.
htt...My (rather acerbic) response to this is here.<br /><br />http://spellsandsteel.blogspot.ca/2013/09/noisms-and-d-combat.htmlCharles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-90618488114368629842013-09-01T16:57:25.731+08:002013-09-01T16:57:25.731+08:00Well, that combatant number issue just reinforces ...Well, that combatant number issue just reinforces the point, in my view, that it's best not to have a fixed figure for how long a combat round is.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-44115792178474042882013-09-01T16:56:29.615+08:002013-09-01T16:56:29.615+08:00Yeah. I kind of like "to attrit" because...Yeah. I kind of like "to attrit" because it's obscure-sounding, and I'm sure Gary would have approved of that.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-76405964898742762572013-09-01T16:55:08.992+08:002013-09-01T16:55:08.992+08:00It is hand-wavey but I suppose the proof is in the...It is hand-wavey but I suppose the proof is in the pudding in that it's playable. I agree healing is hard to work out, but I suppose, again, it's just a matter of imagining that there is some physical damage and exhaustion in there which you have to rest to get over.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-79939336345167357222013-09-01T14:50:31.023+08:002013-09-01T14:50:31.023+08:00What never added up for me with the hit point abst...What never added up for me with the hit point abstraction (that it represents combat skill and hardiness, not merely physical-ness) is how that squares with hit point healing time. If my 4th-level fighter takes 2 hit points of damage in an encounter, that means without magic he requires (on average) one day of bed rest to regain them.<br /><br />I appreciate Gygax's ability to somehow walk the line between playability, game balance, and realism-but-not-simulation, but this area of AD&D always seems a little hand-wavey to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-44573194212091919522013-09-01T13:29:49.178+08:002013-09-01T13:29:49.178+08:00This is the stance I took with Beacon, combat roun...This is the stance I took with Beacon, combat rounds of around 1 minute simply for the sake to book keeping general actions and spells and such. Since you get a missile and a melee phase in that minute it works out to one or two chances 'to hit' per turn. It's abstract but it seems to work ok. I think that it's the only way to go if you are dealing with the abstractions of Armour Class and Hit Points. It is too bad that they used the terms 'to hit' and 'damage' because those terms are misleading when you are dealing with the abstractions of combat effectiveness, skill and fatigue, even if you keep explaining it otherwise. People will gravitate to one role one strike.Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04921387967662542436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-40306734534698207922013-09-01T06:49:28.390+08:002013-09-01T06:49:28.390+08:00The combat round length really should (and I'm...The combat round length really should (and I'm using the word "should" here when I mean "if you were mad") depend on the number of combatants. 1min works well for a dozen or more combatants in a melee; it works poorly for a one-on-one dual like Guy and Robin or for one army versus another.<br /><br />Since the game is not actually about combat as such, 1 minute is a compromise position and works well enough to not want to tinker with it, IMO. Short rounds lead to overly-tactical boring combat with 2" thick rule books about what manoeuvres a demi-squid can make while using the Trouser Press spell from Even More Arcana Volume LXIV, and ten minute turns just give too much freedom to decide anything except by DM fiat.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10805769538648631984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-37783037154299912262013-08-31T06:20:59.671+08:002013-08-31T06:20:59.671+08:00I'm more interested in his excision of clerics...I'm more interested in his excision of clerics from the game as a character class. That I can really get behind: that class is a horrible mess. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-76757927094410881462013-08-31T06:16:40.119+08:002013-08-31T06:16:40.119+08:00Fair point...although maybe you can just assume an...Fair point...although maybe you can just assume an average round of 1 minute for the purposes of torches etc.?noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-4849788375006271782013-08-31T05:58:20.376+08:002013-08-31T05:58:20.376+08:00A combat round in Holmes is 10 seconds (p.20: &quo...A combat round in Holmes is 10 seconds (p.20: "There are ten 'rounds' of combat per turn. Each round is ten seconds, so a combat turn is shorter than a regular turn, but results in at least as much muscular fatigue.").<br /><br />In regards to noisms's assertion of varying round length, I'd note that AD&D1E has at least two different combat round lengths: the normal one minute round, and the surprise round of six seconds each.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-28436210221193926652013-08-31T04:12:04.121+08:002013-08-31T04:12:04.121+08:00I agree with trollsmyth, the fixed length of comba...I agree with trollsmyth, the fixed length of combat rounds is just a convenience for bookkeeping when you're trying to track things like spell duration and torches burning. Delta has a really good, if long, discussion of why the D&D scale is just a mistake in translating from Chainmail and that Moldvay's 1" = 5 feet; 1 round = 10 seconds makes much more sense (not just in "realism" but fitting together with Chainmail scales): http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/p/primary-house-rules.htmlJoshua Macyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10838733328132877699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-83551147142832308262013-08-31T02:01:11.963+08:002013-08-31T02:01:11.963+08:00The only issue with indeterminate combat round len...The only issue with indeterminate combat round lengths is the resource management tied into it. That is, time is a resource of vital importance to the logistical aspects of the game. During the fight, torches burn down, oil in lamps is used up, spells wear out, the sun and moon(s) move through the sky, and we move closer to the next meal and the consumption of more rations. Abstracting to a minute (or 10 seconds) just keeps that sort of record-keeping easy. And, as we all know: YOU CAN NOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT TIME RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT. ;)<br /><br />- Briantrollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-85593865849613541152013-08-31T00:22:51.255+08:002013-08-31T00:22:51.255+08:00Let us also consider the role of hit points. It on...Let us also consider the role of hit points. It only makes sense when contrasting with another system. In D&D, as stated in the rule books, you are perfectly and fully functional so long as you have positive hit points not equal to stun points, not considering other temporary effects that are irrelevant to my point. The reason for this is to glorify combat as an epic battle of mighty foes.<br /><br />Take this in contrast with ShadowRun, where all creatures, from meta-humans to dragons, have 10 hit points and 10 stun points. As you take damage and progress down the damage chart, you incurr negatives which effect your overall performance. This is to replicate the rapid and chaotic nature of violent combat. Indeed, in the ShadowRun universe, the weapon of choice is a gun, and getting shot is usually an immediate show stopper for a combatant. The only way combat can be drawn out is if everyone is firing behind cover. Direct assaults are often over in just a few rounds.<br /><br />/u/mreddingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-87837148874821779182013-08-31T00:07:07.990+08:002013-08-31T00:07:07.990+08:00"Combat rounds are as long as it takes to mak..."Combat rounds are as long as it takes to make sure that everyone gets a go before the next round."<br /><br />Interestingly, pretty much every set of skirmish-scale miniatures wargame rules I've read treat rounds in this fashion.David Larkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04133630988557116729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-12354094233737841522013-08-30T23:58:50.728+08:002013-08-30T23:58:50.728+08:00On abstracting missile fire:
http://untimately.bl...On abstracting missile fire:<br /><br /><a href="http://untimately.blogspot.com/2012/09/abstracting-missiles.html" rel="nofollow">http://untimately.blogspot.com/2012/09/abstracting-missiles.html</a>Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-45785006659257691312013-08-30T23:57:24.387+08:002013-08-30T23:57:24.387+08:00"Roll to attack" is probably the best la..."Roll to attack" is probably the best language. Abstract, and still fits how people actually talk.<br /><br />Also, I 100% approve the message of this post. Down with fiddly concern about exact measurements! They usually just get in the way, and don't add anything. Combat rounds are as long as it takes to make sure that everyone gets a go before the next round.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-470318568470575622013-08-30T23:51:39.129+08:002013-08-30T23:51:39.129+08:00Haha. "Because it's dull, you twit, it...Haha. "Because it's dull, you twit, it'll hurt more."noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-77068108944026377242013-08-30T22:55:18.327+08:002013-08-30T22:55:18.327+08:00I'm curious if Rolemaster had a "spoon&qu...I'm curious if Rolemaster had a "spoon" Critical chart now.David Larkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04133630988557116729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-63042507266871692412013-08-30T22:28:39.168+08:002013-08-30T22:28:39.168+08:00Only because the Sheriff is using a spoon.Only because the Sheriff is using a spoon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-8356874031780323442013-08-30T15:55:49.992+08:002013-08-30T15:55:49.992+08:00I wonder what levels Robin Hood and the Sheriff of...I wonder what levels Robin Hood and the Sheriff of Nottingham are in the Kevin Costner version. Because in my memory that fight goes on for ages.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.com