tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post3525093265862753938..comments2024-03-29T20:04:30.755+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: On Kings Versus Chiefs and the Meaning of WordsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-30083461505386288682020-04-23T18:25:09.800+08:002020-04-23T18:25:09.800+08:00Reminds me of the European travelers and writers o...Reminds me of the European travelers and writers of old, who referred to Mikado as "the Japanese Pope", taking local Daimyos for Kings.Dmitry Gerasimovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04870509986491401701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-4382837228476285482020-04-11T07:35:30.126+08:002020-04-11T07:35:30.126+08:00Side note: you just helped inspire this post :)Side note: you just helped inspire <a href="https://www.ashadler.com/single-post/2020/04/10/Godspeak-and-the-Fomorian-Curse" rel="nofollow">this post</a> :)Ash Adlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09930777908505063233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-23444564193890302372020-04-11T05:40:06.872+08:002020-04-11T05:40:06.872+08:00"Shouldn't Dwarves have multiple language..."Shouldn't Dwarves have multiple languages among them?"<br />When I'm running with language pickiness, I've always used regional languages in that way. A dwarf PC from Haranshire doesn't know Common and Dwarf, they know Haran and Haran(dwarf). Speaking with a dwarf emissary from the other side of a mountain pass? The emissary or their translator knows enough Haran to communicate, but their guards probably only know Dunn(dwarf). Some creatures (like giants or dragons) are exempt for living on a scale that'd treat decades/continents in the way we treat months/cities, and even they can have some variations (e.g. I split fae language into sidhe and sylvan as a sort of low tongue/high tongue divide, similar to Mandarin/Cantonese in the real world).<br /><br />Want to understand everything? That's what Comprehend Languages- or Telepathy-type magics are for, or else find a tutor and study up.Ash Adlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09930777908505063233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-85733795625684369192020-04-11T02:05:15.152+08:002020-04-11T02:05:15.152+08:00I have long thought that if fantasy worlds have di...I have long thought that if fantasy worlds have different species, there should be different cultures among them. Yes, D&D has Hill Dwarves and Mountain Dwarves, etc., but gamers can do a little creative work and make each of these humanoid races more "diverse." Shouldn't Dwarves have multiple languages among them? Shouldn't there be wide cultural variation among goblins? Maybe some have kings called monarchs, maybe others have a different economy and therefore different social organization. Lots of possibilities. You guys seem like you are already thinking along these lines, and I like it.<br /><br />In my non-D&D home game, there are no non-human player characters. Non-humans present another level of foreignness and danger.Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-78749522780562816122020-04-11T01:43:55.326+08:002020-04-11T01:43:55.326+08:00Another example is in the movie the 13th Warrior, ...Another example is in the movie the 13th Warrior, when Ahmad ask Melchisedek (about the Vikings): "How should we adress their leader."<br />And Melchisedek answers: "King at least."Klaus Gerkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04364552750137989056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-77829481724055564782020-04-09T21:41:34.728+08:002020-04-09T21:41:34.728+08:00>I'd love to know a bit more about the shif...>I'd love to know a bit more about the shift in terminology: "king" was certainly used into the 18th century for Native American leaders.<br /><br />King Philip/Metacomet's War caused a massive cultural, linguistic, and semantic shift when it came to Native Americans in the future US. Buzzclawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17055589187997659467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-49513794389738776022020-04-08T21:47:28.064+08:002020-04-08T21:47:28.064+08:00Very nice point. (In my campaign, I've been ha...Very nice point. (In my campaign, I've been having kings of every conceivable group, sparrows, birds, goblins, ravens, spiders, ogres, etc.)Detect Magichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10624282216387956720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-27337092505721000562020-04-08T21:28:08.052+08:002020-04-08T21:28:08.052+08:00Words are meaningful. Connotations matter. All s...Words are meaningful. Connotations matter. All synonyms are not created equal.<br /><br />In terms of applying this to RPGs, stop using humanoids as a shorthand crutch for specific cultures and especially for specific cultural stereotypes (in a general sense, not accusing you in particular of doing so). If you want to depict a world with some depth, combining "dwarf" with "person from the capital of Dwarfland" shouldn't lead to the same end result as combining "dwarf" with "person from the capital of Elfland", "person from the boonies of Dwarfland", "person who spent their who life in Humanland", or whatever else.Ash Adlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09930777908505063233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-76156015586041927612020-04-08T21:20:06.504+08:002020-04-08T21:20:06.504+08:00On a tangent, this is part of why I'm in favor...On a tangent, this is part of why I'm in favor of purging "mundane" humanoids (replacing them with humans, perhaps bearing some mutations of circumstance but ultimately being normal) and restricting them to classical fantasy use as symbolic personifications (e.g. goblins aren't treacherous and malicious pranksters that breed like hyper-fecund rabbits, they ARE treachery and personal malice made manifest, multiplying as an environmental reaction to personal failings and impossible to excise completely without addressing the cause of their gestation).Ash Adlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09930777908505063233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-72476933018533884252020-04-08T08:49:10.201+08:002020-04-08T08:49:10.201+08:00To further the point, an easy way to deepen the ef...To further the point, an easy way to deepen the effect as well as bring some super actionable elements to bear would be to call some orc leaders kings and some oligarchs, or have kobolds led by judges but answerable to an emperor, etc<br /><br />Humans are always treated within the understanding that there are many disparate cultures with different histories and values, but that humanoids are monocultures. I dont know about you, but the idea of even local level differences between the princely orcish states and the republican orcish ones (with whatever variations orcs would have on the concept) an easy way to get super interesting factions brewingMufnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04553153945316136891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-64565332492542472462020-04-08T07:37:13.798+08:002020-04-08T07:37:13.798+08:00This post made me think of Mark Twain's observ...This post made me think of Mark Twain's observations from his tour of Palestine and Syria. <br /><br />"But here in Ain Mellahah, after coming through Syria, and after giving serious study to the character and customs of the country, the phrase 'all these kings' loses its grandeur. It suggests only a parcel of petty chiefs — ill-clad and ill-conditioned savages much like our Indians, who lived in full sight of each other and whose 'kingdoms' were large when they were five miles square and contained two thousand souls. The combined monarchies of the thirty 'kings' destroyed by Joshua on one of his famous campaigns, only covered an area about equal to four of our counties of ordinary size. The poor old sheik we saw at Cesarea Philippi with his ragged band of a hundred followers, would have been called a “king” in those ancient times."<br /><br />Geoffrey McKinney's Carcosa has something that's similar to what you suggest. Most of the locations in the setting are towns of less than three-hundred ruled by petty despots with names like “the Omnipotent King", “The Light by Whom All See”, and "The Ocean of Mercy". It's an amusing touch.PMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06294944268720440205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-25545020250003560302020-04-08T06:38:33.871+08:002020-04-08T06:38:33.871+08:00Huh...interesting thought. Putting it in this pers...Huh...interesting thought. Putting it in this perspective, I suppose I now see why my alma mater changed the name of our teams' mascot from "Chieftains" to "Red Hawks:" in my mind, I always equated the term with "Kings" and always wondered why such a term would be considered pejorative to native peoples while no one raises a stink about teams like the Sacramento Kings. I guess there *are* connotations that I tend to blindspot, because you're right: I certainly have a different image between "shamans" and "wizards," etc.<br /><br />Certainly something to think about...especially with regard to NPC humanoid societies in a campaign.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-58944661848420118952020-04-08T05:40:25.669+08:002020-04-08T05:40:25.669+08:00I think there's a lot of truth in what you say...I think there's a lot of truth in what you say, but I'm not sure I agree entirely. There are contexts in which "king" has a ring of savagery, after all, in opposition to the more civilised "emperor". Think of Theodoric the Great, who was pretty effective at portraying himself as both a fearsome Germanic king (with an afterlife in the sagas) and a civilised stand-in for the Roman emperor (complete with purple robes and Latin administration). <br /><br />And I'd argue that "goblin king" is a *much* more idiomatic and evocative term than "goblin chief". It's there in The Princess and the Goblin (the fons et origo of the orcs), just as it's there in Labyrinth. And of course it's there in D&D too:<br /><br />"When in their lair the “goblin king” will be found. He will fight as a Hobgoblin in all respects. "<br /><br />And:<br /><br />"The Hobgoblin king will fight as an Ogre, as will his bodyguard of from 2–4 in<br />number."<br /><br />Essentially, if you're thinking of the classical period, Late Antiquity or the early Middle Ages, "kings" go with tribes and barbarians (it's a "barbarian" word, after all). And 'tribal king' and 'chieftain' often seem to be interchangeable in anthropology (though not for the Highland clans!). <br /><br />So I'm not sure that the distinct connotations are particularly clear cut - even with reference to the shifting terms for Native American leaders (modern anthropologists and contemporary tribe members seem to favour "chief" over "king"). I'd love to know a bit more about the shift in terminology: "king" was certainly used into the 18th century for Native American leaders.<br /><br />Overall, I think you're on much firmer ground with wizard/priest/shaman - but perhaps that's because those aren't quite the same thing in the way that "king" and "chief" often are historically?<br /><br />I'd also note that Tolkien describes Elrond as a "chief" - and perhaps other Elves too? (It may be that his liking for "chief" and "chiefest" as adjectives has distorted my memory on that latter point!)JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964744140140515737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-20505224059613989682020-04-08T04:41:41.810+08:002020-04-08T04:41:41.810+08:00This is a very curious concept, yes. I recall, whe...This is a very curious concept, yes. I recall, when reading the letters that the jesuit missionaries that where in Japan send back to Rome, that they also called the daimyos 'kings' and one called them 'donos', like the japanese honorific. It's a curious concept, because they knew a lot more than us of their society (they lived there!) but they used their own cultural concepts when talking about Japan.<br /><br />You also can use this in your games: The cultural clash and adaptation between the people that call 'kings' or 'chiefs' to their bosses and their interactions. Nirkhuzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01625430841723207402noreply@blogger.com