tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post6579827445691595612..comments2024-03-29T06:16:21.012+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: Where's the Innovation? Or, Forget the RealmsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-61493011511908176342008-12-19T04:56:00.000+08:002008-12-19T04:56:00.000+08:00I know I'm a little late commenting on this but I ...I know I'm a little late commenting on this but I thought that the primary reason for rebooting FR with the Spellplague was the same reason behind the Time of Troubles: to explain away the fact that the way magic worked had completely changed and there were now Dragonborn roaming the land (OK, no Dragonbron in 2e but you know what I mean).<BR/>Of course, if (when?) they start churning out FR specific sourcebooks beyond just the setting and Player's Guide then it will be fair to call it a rehash rather than just an update.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-68798405633604439702008-09-14T09:35:00.000+08:002008-09-14T09:35:00.000+08:00Kelvingreen: I really hope they don't do that. Not...<B>Kelvingreen</B>: I really hope they don't do that. Not only would it confirm the creative bankruptcy thing, it would also probably ruin two really cool settings.<BR/><BR/><B>Nick</B>: I'd hate Planescape to be the core setting. I'm actually a fan of no-fluff core rules. That's a principle of the 4e designers I fully support. In fact I think they could have gone even further and not put in the Points of Light stuff. The core rules of a game should be just that - rules. It's where Gygax and Arneson really got it right with the original three brown books. <BR/><BR/>I understand that the FR is the easiest setting to sell in the sense that it's probably the lowest common denominator of fantasy settings (after Dragonlance... ugh), and also one of the most famous. But I think Eberron proved that it's possible to sell a non-standard fantasy setting even in the brave new world of WotC D&D. It's all about how it's marketed.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-5389041411187316112008-09-13T23:49:00.000+08:002008-09-13T23:49:00.000+08:00If the goal is to open up the game to access by th...If the goal is to open up the game to access by the most number of people (and I don't know whether it is or should be), then it would make sense to reissue the most famous IP that they still have access to <EM>which is also bog-standard fantasy</EM>. Different and original things are challenging, and challenging things don't sell as well.<BR/><BR/>At least, I could see someone's thoughts going that way. As far as I'm concerned, 4e could have had Planescape as the default setting.Nick Novitskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08863651199447917923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-9471332711796915092008-09-13T17:01:00.000+08:002008-09-13T17:01:00.000+08:00You forgot Ravenloft. ;)I seem to remember hearing...You forgot Ravenloft. ;)<BR/><BR/>I seem to remember hearing something about all the old settings coming back as matched sets of "core" books; as I recall, it starts with Eberron next year, but there was talk of the 2e settings returning, and Dark Sun and Planescape seemed to come up quite often.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-57188804241162066512008-09-13T08:04:00.000+08:002008-09-13T08:04:00.000+08:00Odyssey and Trollsmyth: That's sort of what I was ...<B>Odyssey and Trollsmyth</B>: That's sort of what I was alluding to with production costs. I have to say by the way way that I can't see this "new PHB and DMG every year" thing working for long. How many years will it take before that gets really, really old? 4? Maybe by that time there'll be a 5e, and I really will start getting cynical. <BR/><BR/>The thing is, comparing setting books with PBHII or III or IV or whatever isn't really fair - the comparison should rather be between Forgotten Realms/Eberron supplements and those for a new campaign setting. Now, admittedly there are costs associated with creating brand spanking new material. But that is surely weighed against the chance to bring new fans to the game. A fantastic, innovative new setting is a big attraction for people turned off by traditional high-fantasy and/or Eberron-esque Dungeonpunk. At the moment it seems that WotC are preaching to the choir with their campaign setting choices, rather than looking for fresh blood.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-53271502324608931002008-09-13T05:09:00.000+08:002008-09-13T05:09:00.000+08:00Yeah, agreeing with Odyssey, the thinking goes lik...Yeah, agreeing with Odyssey, the thinking goes like this: they can spend X amount of money to produce a book that only appeals to the players who like a particular setting, or they can spend the same amount of money on a book that will appeal to all D&D players. Obviously, it's more cost-effective to invest in that second book.<BR/><BR/>This is the reasoning behind a new PHB and DMG every year. Most players might ignore "The Complete Book of Psionics" or "A Plethora of Polearms",or, more to the point, a cool new campaign setting. But almost everyone will buy the PHB2. From a financial standpoint, it just makes more sense for them to spend their capital on a new "core rules" book than create a fascinating new setting. <BR/><BR/>I seriously doubt it's a lack of creative talent at WotC. I imagine the folks there would love to lavish their homebrew worlds with the sorts of production values WotC can marshal. But I doubt the bean-counters are willing to cough up the dough for something that can't promise a higher return.<BR/><BR/>- Briantrollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-87472703808860882632008-09-13T04:52:00.000+08:002008-09-13T04:52:00.000+08:00In all fairness, I tried to get a little of every ...In all fairness, I tried to get a little of every setting, just so I could try out a different thing every time I got bored.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-9943862839299643092008-09-13T02:13:00.000+08:002008-09-13T02:13:00.000+08:00Left to them, D&D will eat itself alive.It's a...<I>Left to them, D&D will eat itself alive.</I><BR/><BR/>It's already done so at least once; if 4e can somehow avoid the same fate, I'll be amazed.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-21769096377657119232008-09-13T01:32:00.000+08:002008-09-13T01:32:00.000+08:00I've never bought into that: what's the difference...<I>I've never bought into that: what's the difference one FR book which a million people buy, and ten Dark Sun books, each of which are bought by 100,000 people? Cost of production?</I><BR/><BR/>Every book has certain fixed costs. The writers, artists, designers, typesetters -- none of these costs vary based on the size of the print run, but you have to pay them to get a book. I don't know how major these costs are compared to printing costs, for a publisher of WotC's size, but they clearly don't think they're insignificant.<BR/><BR/>That said, I don't know how well this "everyone is a D&D fan!" thing is going to work out. It mostly looks like a way to get the build obsessed collector types (who seem to be the main audience for their non-setting material) to buy the setting books.<BR/><BR/>I've played with those people. Left to them, D&D will eat itself alive.Nataliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15528192783751011497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-20995217993991000512008-09-12T22:02:00.000+08:002008-09-12T22:02:00.000+08:00My take is that they don't want to give existi...My take is that they don't want to give existing D&D players another reason to jump off the upgrade train. There are a lot of FR fans out there (I'm not one of them, btw, despite having GMed it for a year because it's the setting my play-by-chat group wanted), and if they'd have to abandon everything they've invested in the setting over the years that would be a huge psychic cost over and above having to get used to a completely new game.<BR/> They probably don't even consciously think of it as a cynical ploy, but rather an opportunity to show how Kewl 4e can make that tired old setting...TO THE MAX!Joshua Macyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10838733328132877699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-91401118065622904462008-09-12T21:42:00.000+08:002008-09-12T21:42:00.000+08:004e is obsessed above all else with two things -- "...4e is obsessed above all else with two things -- "balance" and universality. The former is, I think, a mirage that will ultimately lead to creative bankruptcy. The latter is an extension of WotC's long-held misguided belief that they shouldn't "split their own market." Consequently, what we're seeing, with the Realms now and eventually with Eberron, is that WotC doesn't want to cultivate "Realms fans" or "Eberron fans" or whatever. Instead, they want all their customers to be "<I>D&D</I> fans." To achieve that -- and the boost in sales they think comes with it -- they decided to bleed away a lot of the distinctiveness of their settings so that your average <I>D&D</I> player wouldn't look at, say, an Eberron book and say, "Nope, don't play that, so I won't buy it." That's why we're going to get emasculated settings that are more universally "compatible" with the core rulebooks -- "core" now being defined as "every hardcover we publish" -- because WotC sees it as the best way to get every <I>D&D</I> player to buy all these books. <BR/><BR/>I could go on at length about why this approach will prove a disaster in the long run, but I have my own blog to do that :)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-28884483304194740702008-09-12T20:08:00.000+08:002008-09-12T20:08:00.000+08:00chattdm: Oh yeah, I know you can lift stuff from 4...<B>chattdm</B>: Oh yeah, I know you can lift stuff from 4e to the old 2e settings if you want. I'd just like to see WotC do something brand new and really exciting, rather than just re-hash FR. Seems a bit uninspired to me, which is odd as the designers were obviously willing to get really creative with the 4e core rules. (I don't like them so much, but I respect the desire to do something different.) <BR/><BR/>It's interesting what you say about 4e getting butchered during editing. That explains the weird "between two stools" feel it seems to have. I actually wouldn't have minded, for example, if they'd got rid of alignment altogether, rather than keep this weird halfway alignment system thing they have going.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-8081196270968287872008-09-12T19:07:00.000+08:002008-09-12T19:07:00.000+08:00I won't comment on Realms except to say that I'm n...I won't comment on Realms except to say that I'm not a fan and that Greenwood and WotC, much like Lucas, can pretty well do whatever he wants with the setting, it's theirs to start with. <BR/><BR/>Having talked to Mike some and having listened to many interviews I got from him that the 4e design team didn't want to step on the toes of DMs by imposing Fluff on them.<BR/><BR/>I got the feeling that 4e got butchered during editing so the most obvious Indie-inspired mechanics were obfuscated to prevent a worse outcry than the one we're going through.<BR/><BR/>But when you dig through it like I have and having played it with one author, I now understand thatthe cleverly written rules are just a framework to apply whatever you feel on them.<BR/><BR/>Pick any 2e setting book and you can have a 4e compatible homebrewed adventure in one hour once you get the core mechanics of Monster creation and Skill Challenges. (Which, as written is quite a challenege I'll concede)<BR/><BR/>My 2 cents.ChattyDMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06774125843333573256noreply@blogger.com