tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post8049803941833845006..comments2024-03-29T20:04:30.755+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: Noisms' Theorem of Character Generation Length and Player CautiousnessUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-10371906266915558922013-06-28T19:13:37.179+08:002013-06-28T19:13:37.179+08:00Strictly following the procedure of character gene...Strictly following the procedure of character generation, Pendragon integrates the characters into the established setting and creates personalities for them, whereas AD&D doesn't.<br /><br />Obviously, neither will make you like your character more, it is just that you don't expect your character dies in a conflict 15 minutes into the very first session (because it took you four times as much just to make that character). And the only way you can avoid death is playing cautiously.Ynas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-41504226602535230672013-03-29T18:44:48.763+08:002013-03-29T18:44:48.763+08:00Your contents are too simple to read and easy to u...Your contents are too simple to read and easy to understand.<br /><a href="http://downloadfreemanuals.com/dyson-dc14-manual" rel="nofollow">more info about my site</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03977848492914623671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-25899843020704552412013-03-16T01:07:53.050+08:002013-03-16T01:07:53.050+08:00Noisms, are you sniffing zak's balls again aft...Noisms, are you sniffing zak's balls again after I told you not to, you rascal?Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-15107089584055675042013-03-15T01:53:28.795+08:002013-03-15T01:53:28.795+08:00OK. Well, sometimes it's helpful to clarify w...OK. Well, sometimes it's helpful to clarify what the ideal is, even if it can never be fully attained.<br /><br />I definitely agree with your theorem that ease of character generation is a contributing factor.Billyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16717291964764757651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-49623901908664326542013-03-14T21:18:19.085+08:002013-03-14T21:18:19.085+08:00Yeah, it takes longer than you think, especially w...Yeah, it takes longer than you think, especially when you get to family history. I love the idea, though: it achieves what many GMs want when they create a detailed history for their setting (getting the players to know about it) while avoiding the main pitfall (boring infodump). noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-53859532797836724952013-03-14T21:17:10.073+08:002013-03-14T21:17:10.073+08:00Creating characters *is* fun. That's one of th...Creating characters *is* fun. That's one of the reasons why, I think, the D&D 3.5 approach of infinite splatbooks and customisation was so seductive. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-48107906972473505602013-03-14T21:16:16.952+08:002013-03-14T21:16:16.952+08:00Didn't Jeff Rients or somebody come up with a ...Didn't Jeff Rients or somebody come up with a list of DM badges for that purpose? Not sure. I don't usually suggest a backup character to my players, but my players have suggested backup characters in my games in the past - which is perhaps a reflection of my GMing style...noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-45484611583379653632013-03-14T21:15:16.440+08:002013-03-14T21:15:16.440+08:00It's hard to separate out the variables, yes.It's hard to separate out the variables, yes. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-54624447166612656592013-03-14T21:14:25.269+08:002013-03-14T21:14:25.269+08:00Good point. As I said to JD below, you could make ...Good point. As I said to JD below, you could make some sort of pejorative "coherence" based assessment of games which have a deadly system but lengthy character gen process, or vice versa.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-10995803656923036212013-03-14T21:12:18.813+08:002013-03-14T21:12:18.813+08:00I don't disagree necessarily, but I think OOC ...I don't disagree necessarily, but I think OOC factors are to some degree unavoidable in this kind of thing - whether that is ideal or not.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-79686456421784671172013-03-14T21:11:32.272+08:002013-03-14T21:11:32.272+08:00Yes, and I've said as much in the past (see co...Yes, and I've said as much in the past (see comments below!).noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-24993032916048362982013-03-14T21:10:22.270+08:002013-03-14T21:10:22.270+08:00AD&D 2nd edition really ramped up the detail i...AD&D 2nd edition really ramped up the detail in character gen, particularly with kits and the Skills & Powers book. I mostly played that edition growing up too.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-57109006172075788892013-03-14T21:09:24.966+08:002013-03-14T21:09:24.966+08:00Yes. You could get all Ron Edwards about it, in fa...Yes. You could get all Ron Edwards about it, in fact, and say that a game in which the character generation process is not appropriately lengthy or short for the type of game concerned is "incoherent", or some other adjective.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-87042980005769476082013-03-14T21:07:14.276+08:002013-03-14T21:07:14.276+08:00Sure, there is that too. As I said, it is hard to ...Sure, there is that too. As I said, it is hard to separate the different variables. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-41860170752564063372013-03-14T21:05:58.118+08:002013-03-14T21:05:58.118+08:00That reads really nicely. I have my moments, don&#...That reads really nicely. I have my moments, don't I? noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-60130005104356146352013-03-14T14:58:28.591+08:002013-03-14T14:58:28.591+08:00Noisms here is an idea.
Why don't you indicat...Noisms here is an idea.<br /><br />Why don't you indicate somewhere in your posts whether you are talking to yourself in public (I have no interest in those posts) or whether your post is intended to generate discussion.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-23337631333208603912013-03-14T08:35:26.890+08:002013-03-14T08:35:26.890+08:00“You really, absolutely, definitely, indisputably ...“You really, absolutely, definitely, indisputably do not need a detailed character background before play begins. In fact, all you really need is a name, a class, stats, and some equipment, and you're good to go - because within five minutes of the game beginning you will without fail find your character beginning to take on a personality of his own. This strange and almost mystical emergence of character through play is one of the best things about the hobby, and it amazes me that people have been so determined, for decades, to kill that concept.”<br /><br />Monsters and Manuals Blog, 21 October 2011<br />Clovis Cithoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18208194219083373456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-70003270530032610642013-03-13T20:58:30.399+08:002013-03-13T20:58:30.399+08:00In my experience the more complicated character ge...In my experience the more complicated character generation is, the less deadly the game will be. Are Pendragon characters as likely to die as level 1 D&D characters? If not, players are probably going to be less cautious in Pendragon, not more.Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13576384742168685922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-82266178719312483942013-03-13T15:38:39.770+08:002013-03-13T15:38:39.770+08:00I'm going to say that while your initial premi...I'm going to say that while your initial premise ain't bad, in practice I find I tend to agree with the guy who said it just doesn't translate. Perhaps it SHOULD...but then, some games are designed to be wahoo, and then simply fail because the wahoo PCs get killed and it takes a fuck-long time to create a new one (Shadowrun, I'm looking at YOU).<br /><br />The issue is one of design meshing with player expectations. B/X D&D has one of the fastest chargen processes I've come across, and I still find players playing ultra-cautious. A lot of BRP games have extensive chargen systems (1st edition Stormbringer is more fiddly than Pendragon), but then wipe out PCs with a quickness, no matter HOW cautious you try to be (1st edition Stormbringer again). And for some games that's fine, for others, no.<br /><br />I like to look at James Bond 007 as a good example of a chargen system that's VERY involved for good reason...your character is supposed to last a looong time (like Bond). It's very hard to die, and thematically inappropriate. As such, you want a well developed character because you're going to be spending so much time in it. That's a nicely designed game. Any system that has a "realistic, lethal" combat system and an expectation of lots of fights (like D&D) better damn well have a simple chargen system or you're playing with fire (DragonQuest take notice). Players have EXPECTATIONS of what they're going to be getting out of games...and what usually happens isn't that they turn cautious, it's that they get disappointed. <br /><br />In my experience.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-91727506445428882932013-03-13T07:06:36.388+08:002013-03-13T07:06:36.388+08:00Thanks. An insult is preferable to no response in ...Thanks. An insult is preferable to no response in my book.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-64499369959790354552013-03-13T06:11:16.198+08:002013-03-13T06:11:16.198+08:00I'll try to spare your Sumpter. At least in th...I'll try to spare your Sumpter. At least in the first session.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-13675996121867483782013-03-13T05:37:01.708+08:002013-03-13T05:37:01.708+08:00I've been a lifelong d&d type 2 player, an...I've been a lifelong d&d type 2 player, and character creation can take a similar amount of time, especially to the rookie. Player death was a clear and present danger, but we worked hard to avoid it. Grand charges only took place once the enemy was thoroughly reconnoitered, or if the situation was truly desperate.<br /><br />It was also understood that the DM was not out to murder us and would attempt to guide us toward things that we could handle. However, if we insisted on attack the pit fiend, then by all means.<br /><br />I guess because I never played any earlier editions of D&D, I never experienced "The Grinder" wherein characters are rolled and demise with reckless abandon. A lot of thought went into every character we rolled, even the ones rolled up on the blood stain of a newly dead hero.joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12351926278188565029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-72273482979810531632013-03-13T03:40:12.176+08:002013-03-13T03:40:12.176+08:00If my Pendragon guy dies, he dies, but if I have t...If my Pendragon guy dies, he dies, but if I have to rebuild his 4 mechs from scratch all at once I will kill you and your entire family.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-89804234654272913422013-03-13T02:32:39.785+08:002013-03-13T02:32:39.785+08:00My general feeling is that a character takes rough...My general feeling is that a character takes roughly the same time to build regardless of system. It's just that some systems do more of it in play and some do more before play begins. An Old School D&D character, being the results of 6-10 die rolls and a few choices based on those rolls, is incomplete at first level. Only once play begins do they really start to develop. They'll grow mechanically by leveling up, they'll gain dimension as they are confronted with new circumstances that they must adapt to, and they'll gain history as they make it (either the player making up backstory, or play creating events).F. Douglas Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06497140550892192807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-52218004190063444002013-03-12T19:39:25.801+08:002013-03-12T19:39:25.801+08:00Yes - and in something like OD&D, the realisat...Yes - and in something like OD&D, the realisation that the quick character generation is part and parcel of the lethality of the game has led some players - in my experience - to be ultra cautious, while when playing a game with a very involved character creation system there is the [unsaid] presumption that with this much effort expended, the characters cannot be allowed to die.Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.com