tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post834782150809584881..comments2024-03-29T20:04:30.755+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: Borgesian Bibliophiliac MegadungeonUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-7028814116716966922009-02-14T00:48:00.000+08:002009-02-14T00:48:00.000+08:00Nick;And (without going into the various species o...Nick;<BR/><BR/>And (without going into the various species of infinity), if the library were infinite, wouldn't it have an infinite number of copies of each book?<BR/><BR/>If the length of books is limited, it would necessarily have infinite copies of at least one book, but potentially all of them. If the length of books is not limited, than it may or may not have infinite copies of anything or everything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-37741913026193924192009-02-13T11:38:00.000+08:002009-02-13T11:38:00.000+08:00Nick: The original Library of Babel may be infinit...<B>Nick</B>: The original Library of Babel may be infinite and it may not; the story isn't clear. But the maths seem to suggest that it is finite, seeing as no book is the same as another and they are all the same size and length. <BR/><BR/>I'm not looking for anything mazy or labyrinthine; I like the linear honey-comb aspect of the Borgesian idea. I don't think that precludes the existence of strange creatures, treasure etc. In fact it would be a nice change from the traditional dungeon, I think. <BR/><BR/>I like the Boddhisatva vs. Mahayana game. Why not write it?noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-30439777684582810672009-02-13T11:15:00.000+08:002009-02-13T11:15:00.000+08:00I recall the Library of the story being composed o...I recall the Library of the story being composed of identically shaped rooms laid vertically in a "tower" that extended infinitely up and down.<BR/><BR/>Even if we gave it a definite bottom or top floor (or point of entry somewhere in the middle), it would be a rather...linear experience. I assume you'd be looking for a more maze-y/labyrinthine, since your intent is to have a strange place filled with dangers and treasures, rather than a thought experiment that encroaches on insanity.<BR/><BR/>And (without going into the various species of infinity), if the library were infinite, wouldn't it have an infinite number of copies of each book?<BR/><BR/>Now I want an rpg that, instead of dice, uses the "blue tigers" of [a story of his whose name I can't remember] as a random number generator. You take a handful, throw them, and count how many there are at that moment.<BR/><BR/>Or maybe an adventure the PCs are all part of one continent's civilization/culture that is being rapidly burned and pillaged by advanced invaders from over the waves, and the land's only hope is for them to find the one tiger upon whose hide is written the word which was spoken to create (their part of) the world. Beats looking for a scroll or piece of jewelry in my book.<BR/><BR/>I'd love to see a story game that begins with your character having just finally accomplished the one thing they absolutely had to do before killing themselves, and ends when they reach the location where they are going to kill themselves, and the path there is strewn with descriptions of beauty to appreciate or unrighteousness to correct, basically things that pull on them to forsake their oaths and live...a Boddhisatva vs. Mahayana game.Nick Novitskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08863651199447917923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-21287630914142952022009-02-09T17:05:00.000+08:002009-02-09T17:05:00.000+08:00noisms;Finite only if one limits oneself with such...noisms;<BR/><BR/>Finite only if one limits oneself with such things as physics (or chooses a wrong series).<BR/><BR/>There exist series of numbers such that the numbers get smaller, stay positive, and the sum of the series is finite. For example: 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ... = 1. This particular series would not be a good fit, probably, but something similar could work. 1 + 9/10 + 81/100 + 729/1000 + ..., perhaps. The page one is viewing would be of thickness 1 (say, normal page thickness of the world in question), the next and previous page would have thickness 9/10, the next ones 81/100, and so on.<BR/><BR/>Never approaching the end is a good alternative. In my game there is currently one book where the beginning can not be found, but the end is easy to find. (The book records everything that happens to dragons and has done so for roughly an eternity. But only one eternity. Not many.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-57538790679933012872009-02-08T11:04:00.000+08:002009-02-08T11:04:00.000+08:00thanuir: Very nice. I think that would still be fi...<B>thanuir</B>: Very nice. I think that would still be finite, though. The pages furthest away from the one your are currently reading might only become the thickness of an atom, then an electron, then a quark... but an infinite amount of quarks is the same thickness as an infinite amount of miles. <BR/><BR/>I think you would have to just settle for saying that with an infinite book, every time you turn a page you get no closer to the end. Because there is no end.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-32699967240908065702009-02-06T03:37:00.000+08:002009-02-06T03:37:00.000+08:00noisms;The page one happens to be perusing is thic...noisms;<BR/><BR/>The page one happens to be perusing is thickest while other pages get thinner as they are farther away from the one that is being read. Infinitely long books have a good chance of being magical.<BR/><BR/>Alternatively, most of the pages are of the current chapter, while other chapters are reduced to mere pages.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-22748366299247576772009-02-05T18:19:00.000+08:002009-02-05T18:19:00.000+08:00Cole: I remember you posting a comment about it on...<B>Cole</B>: I remember you posting a comment about it on the last entry. Wasn't it set in a kind of space station?noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-35692970292604639862009-02-05T18:11:00.000+08:002009-02-05T18:11:00.000+08:00I have run this campaign. It ran regularly from ab...I have run this campaign. It ran regularly from about 2003-2006, and is theoretically still active.Welcome to Dungeon!https://www.blogger.com/profile/14346914156633328775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-10642869560664004802009-02-05T17:08:00.000+08:002009-02-05T17:08:00.000+08:00Thanuir: It's an interesting thought experiment - ...<B>Thanuir</B>: It's an interesting thought experiment - a bit like the famous infinite hotel. The problem is how to use it in a game: what does an infinitely long book look like?noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-68053720244146124292009-02-05T02:03:00.000+08:002009-02-05T02:03:00.000+08:00noisms;Your library is still finite. It may be big...noisms;<BR/><BR/>Your library is still finite. It may be big, but it is finite. Infinities are, at least for me, more interesting. The library with all finite books, which I suggested, is an example of such, even though it only contains countably infinite books.<BR/><BR/>I think a library that contains all books would be even more interesting. It would contain books of infinite length, too, and those are very interesting. It would have uncountably infinite number of books, which is somewhat difficult a concept to wrap one's mind around. It literally could not be catalogued, as opposed to cateloguing being merely practically impossible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-42788404731685249362009-02-04T23:02:00.000+08:002009-02-04T23:02:00.000+08:00Fitzerman's: Aha, guides. Preferably semi-insane o...<B>Fitzerman's</B>: Aha, guides. Preferably semi-insane ones. I like it.<BR/><BR/><B>Kelly</B>: Demons' names! I hadn't thought of that angle. Very good.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-73943064856599266072009-02-04T12:14:00.000+08:002009-02-04T12:14:00.000+08:00Planetext? :)Somewhere within the library is this ...Planetext? :)<BR/><BR/>Somewhere within the library is this ultimate book of course. Its location is forgotten. But somewhere in the library is the book that contains that book's secret location, but THAT book itself was destroyed, yet it is known that there are four books each of which contain within them a fourth of the book that contains the key to the location of the ultimate book...<BR/><BR/>It is said that if you destroy a book in the library, any book or other piece of writing existing as a sizable subset of that book is wiped from existence. Thus the fiercest guardians of books sent into to protect the genesis of their culure. Thus the greatest attack on the library ever, of the demon ____ who sought to destroy any text that included his name. Finally he was banished as the list of books was found that contained the progressive letters of his name each as the 6th letter of the 66th page. The damage was done however, and still loyal cultists of his seek to destroy any --K. Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06623767121412820113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-20604706501076962402009-02-04T11:42:00.000+08:002009-02-04T11:42:00.000+08:00Yeah, but only if you know the routes. Otherwise,...Yeah, but only if you know the routes. Otherwise, it's infinite space, stack after stack. Certain tribes know the way to certain places, there's a barter in maps, perhaps...TyBannermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241483332119936529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-69958002846696847892009-02-04T07:51:00.000+08:002009-02-04T07:51:00.000+08:00Chris: Yeah, that works. I like the idea of Purple...<B>Chris</B>: Yeah, that works. I like the idea of Purple Book Worms, by the way. Very nice.<BR/><BR/><B>Fitzerman</B>: That's a nice idea - more of a library to which all other libraries are connected?<BR/><BR/><B>Chgowiz</B>: Pretty cool, eh?<BR/><BR/><B>Thanuir</B>: Well, of course, the Library of Babel somewhere contains a book where all 410 pages are filled with the letter 'a'. To find that book could be a quest in itself. Then there's the book which is 410 pages of unbroken commas. There's also one which contains the word 'and' over and over again. And one which manages to perfectly replicate Hamlet within its covers, except the main character's name is Turdbrain.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-70661594713903986192009-02-04T05:01:00.000+08:002009-02-04T05:01:00.000+08:00Lots of books is a good thing. What about a librar...Lots of books is a good thing. What about a library with all books?<BR/><BR/>First it has all books with only single character. Then all books with 2 characters. Then three. Then ...<BR/><BR/>Infinities are fun.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-2305372825728493662009-02-04T02:05:00.000+08:002009-02-04T02:05:00.000+08:00Oh man, what they said and more...After all, each ...Oh man, what they said and more...<BR/><BR/>After all, each group has regrouped the books, the shelves and the structure to support their worship and ideas. I'm sure things have changed, there are some areas of decadent book reading orgies, and other areas where if you don't read 5 books a day, you are burned at the stake! <BR/><BR/>This just stokes my imagination...Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-74021065601330229372009-02-04T00:44:00.000+08:002009-02-04T00:44:00.000+08:00Didn't Pratchett have libraries whose trans-dimens...Didn't Pratchett have libraries whose trans-dimensional stacks blended into the trans-dimensional stacks of other libraries? Sort of a "wood between the worlds" but with books? That might solve your uniformity problem, make it so that characters in the Library of Babel can walk a certain path among the infinite stacks and find themselves in a different library all together. You can still have your roving tribes of lost research students, but the Library of Babel serves as more of a transitional space, infinite in and of itself, but leading to finite and varied locations as the campaign's needs dictate.TyBannermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241483332119936529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-71201796127640155892009-02-04T00:22:00.000+08:002009-02-04T00:22:00.000+08:00"And without landmarks, finding a way around could..."And without landmarks, finding a way around could become a chore beyond all reckoning.<BR/><BR/>How best to get around this problem is something to think about."<BR/><BR/>Perhaps the inhabitants of the library (bibliomanes, historians, l-space entities, purple bookworms, etc.) are going to start adapting the endless shelving to their own needs.<BR/><BR/>Knock a partition out here. Add a lean-to there. And within a little while the shelves become a cross between a slumtown and a traditional dungeon.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04072272223837426211noreply@blogger.com