tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post9194632529241645514..comments2024-03-29T20:04:30.755+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: Plausible WomenUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-58645073771364209452016-04-26T07:07:45.774+08:002016-04-26T07:07:45.774+08:00This is the best edition of his work.
http://www....This is the best edition of his work.<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Rediscovery-Man-Complete-Science-Cordwainer/dp/0915368560/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1461625203&sr=1-1&keywords=cordwainer+smithKenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-672277427644515362016-04-26T07:06:53.271+08:002016-04-26T07:06:53.271+08:00Cordwainer Smith and PK Dick are probably my favou...Cordwainer Smith and PK Dick are probably my favourite SF authors and Cordwainer Smith was absolutely sensitive in creating interesting female characters. His stories are poetic and romantic and yet exacting (it is hard to find fault with his scientific extravagance) and mythologically far flung across vast gulfs of time. Warmer than Clarke-Kubrick's 2001 it is easy to imagine an early 1970s David Bowie soundtrack to his stories.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-91695584074681380762016-04-16T23:52:38.597+08:002016-04-16T23:52:38.597+08:00@Tom Killian - "It's mostly older work to...@Tom Killian - "It's mostly older work to be sure" - it bothers me if an art form is effectively a dead form, like literary sf and even tv sf - certainly if I see it die in my lifetime. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-60886186908238889512016-04-12T04:43:05.386+08:002016-04-12T04:43:05.386+08:00Like I said, I'm not trying to argue strength ...Like I said, I'm not trying to argue strength is irrelevant! Just that there are plenty of women I know who could (if they wanted to) go around picking fights and winning them, but never do so because they don't have that testosterone-fuelled urge that many men have to inflict and receive pain. So it seems to me it's not so much that you can't train either sex to be good fighters. It's more that you wouldn't bother given that men seem to have such a mental aptitude for it (and are largely expendable for reasons discussed above), while women don't. <br /><br />Yeah, one of my big complaints about the new Star Wars film was that I felt that Rey was too much of a badass. They seemed to want to go with a "strong" female lead...but did exactly what you're referring to and interpreted that as meaning she is able to beat up a dozen storm troopers before breakfast. The two things seem unavoidably (but mindlessly) linked together in contemporary geekdom. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-63429722480812013762016-04-08T01:55:13.980+08:002016-04-08T01:55:13.980+08:00There are different types of strength, certainly. ...There are different types of strength, certainly. But men have more of both. I'd disagree on reach being a huge factor; good male fencers are often short (especially sabreurs), and longer arms mean bigger targets (in sabre and epee, at least). Also, strength allows an effective 'beat' in sport fencing and a stronger parry. I fenced a lot through school, and the post-pubertal divergence was almost as marked as in my other fighting sport, judo. <br /><br />Now, *real* sword-fighting has much more kinship to judo than sport fencing (look at the role of grappling in historical manuals), so big musculature is much more of a factor. And we know that that was the case historically; bone analysis from sites like Repton, St John's Oxford and Towton shows that medieval warriors were typically very heavily muscled. I recall talking to the main archaeologist of the Repton site when I was at college. He told me that the bones of the viking corpses had spurs like those on the bones of modern powerlifters.<br /><br />That underscores the point about *trained* fighters. Given muscle-building potential, the physical divergence between trained male and female fighters would be greater than that between untrained levies. <br /><br />Now, I agree entirely on aggression. I'd argue that it's much more common to meet men who will be aggressive *without losing their temper* than women. I played rugby in the front row for years, and there's certainly an endless supply of men who will deal out physical punishment with a smile. That's not to denigrate women's rugby in the slightest - but there are far, far fewer female enthusiasts for that sort of thing.<br /><br />Another point on strength. I think its importance in hand-to-hand fighting tends to be underplayed for various reasons. First, modern combat-derived sports like Olympic fencing have tended to demote its role by removing grappling entirely. Second, coaches of combat sports don't - for very good reasons - want new participants to rely on strength. They want them to learn technique. So the role of strength is deliberately played down in training ("stop being negative", etc.). Now, technique ultimately trumps strength, but it takes a lot of technique to trump a lot of strength. An experience grappler will run rings around a strong newbie, but a strong newbie can do quite well against weaker people with more limited training. And a *very* strong person can be a real handful for even the most skilled; I read an account of a heavyweight US masters state judo champion saying that he simply couldn't throw a newbie who had a 500-pound bench press. That's really extraordinary strength of course (probably well off the 3D6 scale!). <br /><br />Anyway, I entirely agree with your main point`! It strikes me that there's often a poverty of imagination in contemporary fantasy books and games that confuses a *strong character* (one that's well drawn, vivid and compelling) with a *physically* strong character (and that sometimes gets compounded by a geekish/Mary Sue wish-fulfilment tendency). <br /><br />There's also sometimes a certain juvenility in genre fantasy that elevates "strength", "hardness" or "badassery" to essential components of heroism or even being a protagonist. Again, for all the fashionable denigration, that's not a trap that Tolkien fell into much: just look at the hobbits! JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964744140140515737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-82856449050159782782016-04-07T18:25:17.452+08:002016-04-07T18:25:17.452+08:00There are different types of strength, though. Spe...There are different types of strength, though. Speed comes from fast-twitch muscle fibre strength, which is different from having big musculature. I suspect the reason why fencing tournaments are split into male and female categories has more to do with reach, which is a function, of course, of size. I don't want to dismiss the importance of strength entirely - I just think the reason why men have ended up being fighters in most societies is more to do with the fact that they are just intrinsically more aggressive (they actually want to do it!) and, perhaps more crucially still, are expendable. I'm pretty sure in our ancient past we lived in societies in which a 'big man' got to have sex with a lot of women, and there were a lot of surplus unmarried men hanging round as a consequence. They mostly ended up fighting each other and hopefully eventually becoming a 'big man' themselves. In slightly more advanced societies this ended up in a situation in which you had a rich elite where the men each had a large number of wives, and there was a consequence of young unmarried men around as a result. They could be employed as soldiers. You also don't particularly need men around to bear and look after kids; women are biologically precious. Men aren't particularly. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-83423326439213286842016-04-07T18:14:50.599+08:002016-04-07T18:14:50.599+08:00Have you really met 'plenty' of aggressive...Have you really met 'plenty' of aggressive women? I'm not talking about being assertive. I'm talking about physically aggressive. I think there are certain male and female traits that are more 'male' or 'female' than others. For instance, it's true that in general women talk more than men. But it isn't hard to find men who are very talkative or women who are taciturn. I would put physical aggression in a different category - there is only a very slight overlap between the sexes there. <br /><br />On the second point, I think overcompensation is a huge factor, but I also think there is something to this argument about the feminine ideal. To the male nerd, the ideal woman is beautiful and sexy, but also likes everything the male nerd likes, and - strangely - is also <i>better than them</i> at doing "traditionally male" things like fighting, athleticism, etc. There is something interesting going on there psychologically, but I'm not sure what!noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-48690014123730507142016-04-06T18:39:49.090+08:002016-04-06T18:39:49.090+08:00A couple of years back, a fantasy author with whom...A couple of years back, a fantasy author with whom I am acquainted had her debut novel accepted for publication; but her publisher, no keenly doubt aware that the primary target audience for fantasy novels is now girls rather than boys, requested that she rewrite the male protagonist as female. You can read her thoughts on the rewriting process here:<br /><br />http://lucyhounsom.com/?p=1652<br /><br />As for the 'strong female character' issue, I was actually impressed by the subtlety and care with which it's addressed in 'The Hunger Games' novels (although not so much in the film versions). There's a rather glib reading which basically applauds Katniss as awesome because she's all tough and violent and tomboyish rather than 'girly', but the books actually explore in some depth the different kinds of strengths and weaknesses attendant upon being a manly man (Gale), a feminine girl (Prim), a feminised man (Peeta), or a masculinised woman (Katniss), and does not at all straightforwardly valorise Katniss's version of femininity over the other possibilities around her. The novels have their weaknesses, but I don't think that their handling of gender is amongst them. Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-43659061290992593382016-04-06T16:58:44.055+08:002016-04-06T16:58:44.055+08:00I'm not sure how a science fiction show being ...I'm not sure how a science fiction show being REALLY a woman's show is a contradiction. Science fiction is essentially a collection of setting elements, not a type of story. You can have space opera, sword & planet, classic logic puzzle hard sf, sf noir, sf romance, sf mystery, science fiction fantasy, soap opera, western, children's cartoon, and so on. They're all still science fiction stories.<br /><br />And as someone who enjoys classically masculine science fiction and fantasy stories, I'm not exactly hurting for reading material. It's mostly older work to be sure, but I don't read much contemporary fantasy either so I'm not especially bothered. Tom Kilianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17086235205146158319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-90626097022957816652016-04-06T16:39:57.589+08:002016-04-06T16:39:57.589+08:00"It's not that strong, aggressive women o..."It's not that strong, aggressive women or emotional intuitive men are unrealistic. It is that they are comparatively rare". Not especially, no. The culturally accepted expressions of aggression or sensitivity are different for the two sexes to be sure, but I've met plenty of aggressive women and plenty of sensitive/intuitive men. Indeed, I've met a good number of men and women who were both forceful and emotionally intuitive.<br />Now of course there are differences between the sexes, and I'm not one to suggest that all of these differences are purely cultural, but it's not especially shocking to meet a woman who isn't classically feminine in every respect. <br /><br />That said, I agree with you that the male nerd author's vision of femininity tends to be a very masculine one. I waffle between thinking this is the result of overcompensating on trying to deliver Strong Female Characters (where the author is working on a very narrow definition of what it means to be strong) and a curious kind of sexual idealization, in which the perfect woman is someone who likes everything the male author likes. In either case I think it could be largely resolved by the author A) meeting more women, and B) getting out of a mental space that treats women as some unknowable Other. Women will have different perspectives and life experiences than men, and that should usually be apparent in any well-realized character, regardless of personality. And if all of an author's female characters fit into a certain mold, whether it be Male With Breasts or Fragile Virgin, we're probably dealing with a poorly written book.Tom Kilianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17086235205146158319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-10019905132439387142016-04-06T12:48:30.418+08:002016-04-06T12:48:30.418+08:00"I would suggest that the idea that MRAs and ..."I would suggest that the idea that MRAs and Gamergaters hate women is essentially fabricated."<br /><br />I like the tweet from aMBusch: "Go fuck yourself stupid cunt. Learn your shit before you make something out of nothing. Gamergate is not hating on women"anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-27513759458397953932016-04-06T12:41:26.467+08:002016-04-06T12:41:26.467+08:00A thought experiment that might be relevant:
Imag...A thought experiment that might be relevant:<br /><br />Imagine a female version of The Stainless Steel Rat-a conwoman named 'Slippery' Jane DiGriz.<br /><br />If you didn't know the original character, you'd probably assume that 'Slippery Jane' was a seductress/femme fatale type: she cons men by using her sex appeal.<br /><br />But Jim DiGriz doesn't do that at all. Even though there are men in real life who use seduction to con people (men and/or women), 'conman' heavily implies 'seduces people' for fictional women but not for fictional men.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-33411575462110702032016-04-05T08:50:12.844+08:002016-04-05T08:50:12.844+08:00On "it is speed and technique that kills"...On "it is speed and technique that kills": well, yes - but strength is a key component of "speed" in fighting. That's why - for example - fencing tournaments have both male and female categories. And strength was far more important in *real* medieval sword-fighting, as grappling was a huge factor - especially when plate armour became a factor. <br /><br />Size is important too; I always thought that RuneQuest was a step ahead of other games in making SIZ a stat. <br /><br />I agree with you on Martin's characterisation of Brienne: he works through the consequences of her situation very well. My (minor) issue, I suppose, is with her status as winner of a 100+warrior melee tournament and "wrecking machine": it rather breaks the plausibility of non-magical Westeros (unless she does turn out to be a giant throwback or something). But so, of course, does Robert Baratheon's warhammer, which Ned Stark could hardly lift. A strong man wouldn't have an unwieldy warhammer: he'd simply hit harder with a relatively normal-sized one!<br /><br />JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964744140140515737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-53770964708824968462016-04-05T02:10:27.592+08:002016-04-05T02:10:27.592+08:00@ Noisms:
The pulp action hero has always been of...@ Noisms:<br /><br />The pulp action hero has always been of that mold (see Doc Savage)...Croft just happens to be a female version of the classic "uber-hero."JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-6534266495813762162016-04-05T00:06:01.088+08:002016-04-05T00:06:01.088+08:00That myth is an odd one, but these things go in cy...That myth is an odd one, but these things go in cycles. About 10-15 years ago it was very much in the zeitgeist to take quite seriously the biological differences between the sexes (at one stage you couldn't turn on a BBC channel without finding a documentary about that subject, and books like "Why men don't listen and women can't read maps" were really popular). This seems to have flipped to the opposite extreme. I expect it'll flip back again at some point. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-56075232993413605152016-04-04T23:57:40.291+08:002016-04-04T23:57:40.291+08:00"I am not a Men's Rights Activist or Game..."I am not a Men's Rights Activist or Gamer Gater or anything like that."<br />I would suggest that the idea that MRAs and Gamergaters hate women is essentially fabricated. Many of them hold views identical to your own and a significant proportion are women themselves.<br /><br />Regardless, I'd probably just blame poorly-written female characters on Sturgeon's Law combined with an increased desire for representation. Although there seems to be a persistent myth that any and all differences between men and women are cultural. I'm not sure how much that plays into the writing - I suppose you'd have to look at the views of the individual authors - but in that context, having male and female characters acting similarly might even be seen as progressive. Particularly in a fantastic or futuristic setting with a vastly different culture to our own.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-22197218137381216922016-04-04T23:31:41.108+08:002016-04-04T23:31:41.108+08:00Well all humans have to be one or the other, don&#...Well all humans have to be one or the other, don't they! Is it very hard to think of a male character in fiction who seems to have no particular 'maleness' to them? Maybe they're just male because, what else would a former soldier be?BirelArwehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09780939943771193609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-46602147559314028572016-04-04T23:25:24.722+08:002016-04-04T23:25:24.722+08:00That sounds reasonable. You can have women charact...That sounds reasonable. You can have women characters whose femininity is more of an implicit trait, and that can still be powerful or appreciated by the audience. E.g. https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/12/19/gaming-made-me-tomb-raider/ tells how the writer (a woman) really appreciated the Tomb Raider games.maimed autarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01519668649420482914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-82241100332390323592016-04-04T23:24:05.653+08:002016-04-04T23:24:05.653+08:00I respectfully have to say that I think of this as...I respectfully have to say that I think of this as a sign of a badly-written character!noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-43015420955378445522016-04-04T23:23:13.950+08:002016-04-04T23:23:13.950+08:00I have an Iain Banks allergy. I've never been ...I have an Iain Banks allergy. I've never been able to enjoy his books. The others I have heard of and will read at some point... noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-80847063838212663032016-04-04T23:22:51.472+08:002016-04-04T23:22:51.472+08:00"Fucking wrecking machine" might be slig..."Fucking wrecking machine" might be slight hyperbole. She has a lot of success in one-on-one combat, but her fights against multiple opponents do not go super well, I think? So she is an above-average fighter in a setting with a pretty low skill ceiling.maimed autarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01519668649420482914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-19278463781654905512016-04-04T23:22:12.877+08:002016-04-04T23:22:12.877+08:00I have not seen the TV series. In the books she...I have not seen the TV series. In the books she's presented as being a very good fighter - I think she wins a tournament at one point? (Been a while since I've read them.) George RR Martin has his flaws, but he is simply superb at creating believable characters, and I think Brienne is one of his best: as a depiction of a female warrior type, with all of the internal and external issues that would accompany that role in that setting, I think she is utterly credible. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-2448884535710570722016-04-04T22:58:14.604+08:002016-04-04T22:58:14.604+08:00This makes me think of Lara Croft. I think in most...This makes me think of Lara Croft. I think in most Tomb Raider games, if you reskinned the character model as a man, and changed the voice, it wouldn't seem wrong. I always thought this was a sign of a well written character, the fact that she's a woman doesn't define her at all. Her character is defined by her methods, motivations, and relationships. She's a globe trotting, aristocratic, thrill seeking archaeologist with guns. The fact that she's female is far less interesting.BirelArwehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09780939943771193609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-48345103988561965582016-04-04T22:57:52.766+08:002016-04-04T22:57:52.766+08:00No, in the books she is a fucking wrecking machine...No, in the books she is a fucking wrecking machine. Ivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923725063649465366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-41412075622623292122016-04-04T19:25:29.283+08:002016-04-04T19:25:29.283+08:00I think it's a mix - TV sf retargetting itself...I think it's a mix - TV sf retargetting itself to female viewers around 15 years ago seemed like a push to me. Personally I noticed there were suddenly all these supposedly sci-fi shows that were really women's TV in disguise (if that). That's what prompted my loss of interest in TV sf, not a preference for videogames.<br /><br />I'm not sure if the more recent SJW takeover of literary sf is a cause or effect of the loss of interest in literary sf by men & boys, it might be both.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.com