tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post1436510340358899361..comments2024-03-29T06:16:21.012+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: A Philosophy of RPG CombatUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-27126422116797506232013-08-22T09:06:38.098+08:002013-08-22T09:06:38.098+08:00Completely agree. We often play the Harn RPG which...Completely agree. We often play the Harn RPG which has a very deadly combat system. It's almost the reverse of D&D, PC's only engage in combat when they have a huge advantage and think it will be a pushover.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13889858816805074668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-53335768232177229182013-08-17T16:36:49.474+08:002013-08-17T16:36:49.474+08:00I don't understand that scenario. Why are the ...I don't understand that scenario. Why are the PCs going to try to ambush and kill the goblins just because combat is more dangerous, if they weren't going to do that if combat is safe? If they kill the goblins they don't get any info or labourers or anything much at all. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-3547945974972341782013-08-17T07:13:20.656+08:002013-08-17T07:13:20.656+08:00In the case were the PCs are surprised, the player...In the case were the PCs are surprised, the players will have no say in whether or not to engage in combat so deadliness here only punishes the players. As a reaction, they will focus more on stealth leading to more situations where they attack by surprise, leading to more monster massacres. Hedgehobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17606283586332210195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-61848031164619808492013-08-17T04:26:08.778+08:002013-08-17T04:26:08.778+08:00Yep, it's one of a good number of cool ideas t...Yep, it's one of a good number of cool ideas that JB's put into the game, as a way of answering some of the long-time complaints about the D&D system. Definitely take a look if you can...Anthony Simeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312134763577949405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-81366665412228273132013-08-17T04:21:19.365+08:002013-08-17T04:21:19.365+08:00I would argue that "PCs have surprise" s...I would argue that "PCs have surprise" should not necessarily be the standard state of things. And in the case where the PCs do not have surprise, deadly combat tends to make conversation much more likely.jedavishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08586249502818922886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-45105729666074609942013-08-17T03:56:05.526+08:002013-08-17T03:56:05.526+08:00Consider the situation where a group of 4th level ...Consider the situation where a group of 4th level character encounter a small band of goblins. In D&D, these goblins aren't a threat so there is no downside to revealing your position and approaching the goblins for some discussion. Maybe you'll get some info or pack bearers out of it. Worst case you take a few d6 hits. However, if you change the combat system such that these goblins have the potential to kill the PCs, then the risk of dealing with them goes up whereas the reward (info, laborers) stays the same.<br /><br />Thus the PCs will have less incentive to talk to the goblins versus ambushing them or simply avoiding them. Talking to the monsters is a stupid move when it allows them to prepare for combat (even if it is just drawing weapons). <br /><br />Deadly combat results in less monster-to-PC interaction as doing so gives up any tactical advantage the PCs might have.<br /><br />My D&D players always talk to weaker monsters, something my Runequest players (some of whom the same people!) never did unless they were caught off guard and trying to talk their way out of a fair fight. Hedgehobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17606283586332210195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-83048915140266559332013-08-17T02:24:55.688+08:002013-08-17T02:24:55.688+08:00Yeah, that would definitely be my preference. As a...Yeah, that would definitely be my preference. As a DM I love it when players try to negotiate with potential 'enemies', because it brings them further into the setting and also provides opportunities to riff on. If the PCs parley with a randomly encountered ogre, it might turn out he needs something and will do something for them in return. Hey presto! More stuff to do in the sandbox. But will he betray them? Or they, he? Etc. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-82385480213951712392013-08-17T02:22:40.614+08:002013-08-17T02:22:40.614+08:00(Which can be quite amusing, I will add, when cler...(Which can be quite amusing, I will add, when clerics have access to <i>speak with animals</i>.)Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-22741753727360485322013-08-17T02:21:28.282+08:002013-08-17T02:21:28.282+08:00My players have responded to lethal combat by tryi...My players have responded to lethal combat by trying to negotiate with everything rather than becoming vicious murderers. I do think there are a lot of other variables at work here though, such as the nature of consequences for actions within the setting.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-48176632098800449692013-08-17T00:45:03.582+08:002013-08-17T00:45:03.582+08:00Each to their own. Isn't "vicious band of...Each to their own. Isn't "vicious band of murderous cowards" also an apt descriptor of a bunch of souped-up PCs killing inferior opposition in a stand-up fight, though? An easy face to face fight strikes me as as cowardly within the fiction as an easy stab in the back. At least the latter requires more thought. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-11246115861101921992013-08-17T00:09:26.991+08:002013-08-17T00:09:26.991+08:00I spent years playing Runequest, a game where any ...I spent years playing Runequest, a game where any combat has the potential to be deadly. The result was that the players were forced to use every advantage, to never give the monsters a fair fight to only attack when their victim was unprepared or overmatched. They became a vicious band of murderous cowards. It was actually quite depressing. It wasn't just one group either. Every group of PCs ended up this way.<br /><br />Constantly deadly combat? Count me out!Hedgehobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17606283586332210195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-69057563901107491412013-08-16T16:43:29.245+08:002013-08-16T16:43:29.245+08:00Precisely!Precisely!noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-10853704037558743832013-08-16T09:46:49.749+08:002013-08-16T09:46:49.749+08:00So, combat as war, then?So, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/new-horizons-upcoming-edition-d-d/317715-very-long-combat-sport-vs-combat-war-key-difference-d-d-play-styles.html" rel="nofollow">combat as war</a>, then?jedavishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08586249502818922886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-35412230745282228002013-08-16T07:49:15.161+08:002013-08-16T07:49:15.161+08:00That certainly is deadly - wow!That certainly is deadly - wow!Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-63568713205014145122013-08-16T04:17:17.948+08:002013-08-16T04:17:17.948+08:00That's quite a cool idea.That's quite a cool idea. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-54026504447062730212013-08-16T03:31:19.201+08:002013-08-16T03:31:19.201+08:00Well put. I'm not certain I would never want t...Well put. I'm not certain I would never want to include some easy fights for players. Occasionally allowing your players their masturbatory impulses can enhance the game if it doesn't control the game. And it can function to lull the players into taking interesting risks. <br /><br />But in large part, I agree with you. Combat should be scary for players to enter into. LShttp://www.paperspencils.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-79265524939775803812013-08-16T03:12:20.308+08:002013-08-16T03:12:20.308+08:00Yes, there will be easy random encounters generate...Yes, there will be easy random encounters generated sometimes in D&D. Even those shouldn't be easy, though. I'm a great believer in creatures having a strong sense of self-preservation and just legging it if they come against powerful PCs. But that then confronts the PCs with a meaningful and difficult choice: follow or not. (So does surrender, for that matter: kill them or take them captive?) <br /><br />But I don't see D&D as having the perfect combat system, for this very reason. My favourites are Rolemaster, Cyerpunk 2020, ORE. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-12488916279215824972013-08-16T02:54:26.934+08:002013-08-16T02:54:26.934+08:00If there are no pushover fights, it harms the sens...If there are no pushover fights, it harms the sense that the world exists out there regardless of who the PCs are or how powerful. The ultimate expression of that is in the Challenge Level advice of later D&D or some computer games where no matter where you go or how you level up, the goblins and the bandits become more powerful or you stop meeting goblins and bandits and only meet dragons and beholders. That doesn't mean you have to play out the pushover fights in any detail, but assuming the PCs can become more powerful then they should sometimes run into things that ought to just surrender to them or run away and if they don't should get slaughtered easily.Joshua Macyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10838733328132877699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-80706088289230101012013-08-16T02:15:26.069+08:002013-08-16T02:15:26.069+08:00Agreed on all points!
I always made sure to prefa...Agreed on all points!<br /><br />I always made sure to preface their decisions to fight things with the same "Are you suuuure?" I used for entering areas of trap-filled menace.<br /><br />Plus after a couple of years of 4e's undeadly combat making it kind of boring for me as a DM, I wanted my players to actually feel worried that the measly goblin might stab them to death.James Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01728054107958411289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-65089568095085603662013-08-15T21:48:00.371+08:002013-08-15T21:48:00.371+08:00JB at BX Blackrazor sorta "rebuilt" Basi...JB at BX Blackrazor sorta "rebuilt" Basic D&D from the ground up to create his Five Ancient Kingdoms game. With regard to deadliness, I believe I remember him talking about that in one of the game's "development" posts. <br /><br />At any rate, during combat in 5AK, if your attack roll exceeds the number needed to hit an opponent by four or more, then you kill that opponent with that attack. I believe he worked this into the rules because he wanted a way to cut down on long, drawn-out combats and also to reflect heroic tales in which a well-placed blow slew a monster outright (think Bard and the arrow that took out Smaug, right?.<br /><br />Check it out:<br /><br />http://bxblackrazor.blogspot.com/2013/08/five-ancient-kingdoms-what-you-get.htmlAnthony Simeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312134763577949405noreply@blogger.com