tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post2756368869533935037..comments2024-03-29T06:16:21.012+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: Professional Ethics and PrideUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-31357894584952761962016-07-12T17:04:49.549+08:002016-07-12T17:04:49.549+08:00@Zak: It depends how you define "quality serv...@Zak: It depends how you define "quality service". I don't think that teachers, doctors, accountants, lawyers, etc. conceive of their work as just being about providing a "quality service", and the practical results are much broader than that. Most lawyers at least have some understanding that law has a role in keeping society together and restraining power, even if they don't participate in that directly. The same is true of most if not all professions - doing a good job is important, but what "doing a good job" means is much broader than just providing a quality service. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-13108445971397817662016-07-12T14:09:44.931+08:002016-07-12T14:09:44.931+08:00Engineering is arguably creative.
One could quibb...Engineering is arguably creative.<br /><br />One could quibble about quality and cost being tradeoffs, and say that chasing quality past diminishing returns into sheer in-economy is unprofessional. :)<br /><br />Professionalism as minimizing controversy: There are certain popular policy fads that overlap with engineering decision space. The people responsible for these fads largely do not have an engineering background. A lot of people also support the idea that consensus matters, and that polling scientists is a legitimate source for analytical data that engineers must base their decisions on.<br /><br />Under Zak's model, the professional thing to do would seem to be avoid controversy, make decisions that satisfy consensus, or even defer decisions.<br /><br />Under noisms' model, we'd look at engineer teachings on general solutions to that type of problem. Engineering practice is not a debate society, a trolling club, or fighting for fight's sake. What matters is results. If engineers wanted consensus making engineering decisions, engineers would give consensus permission to sign and stamp documents as a professional engineer. Specific entities sign, seal, or stamp documents as a professional engineer, and are answerable. Furthermore, it is strongly suggested that an engineer only speak in public with care and on topics they are competent to discuss.<br /><br />We actually do see both.<br /><br />Publications of some of the engineering professional societies show signs of being written to the taste of bureaucrats and the like in love with fashion. <br /><br />Conversely, there are PEs who only stamp and seal their own work, or work which they supervised, which is in their professional judgement correct to the best of their knowledge. Which may have no relation to what the fad suggests. Where it differs, they may refrain from going out it public and calling out "all y'all innumerate sons of Boche". The areas a fad may be wrong on often are much broader than an engineer's area of practice makes them competent to discuss. <br /><br />(I suspect that some of the aversion to controversy that Zak attributes to professionalism is a broader social thing. If there is a growing sentiment that some different ideas are evil, must be punished, and can be punished by economic means, there is an incentive for those that fear economic risk to hide their positions, or not hold positions. Yes, refusing to defend attracts predators, and hence is a really bad strategy. However, it is difficult to form a group willing to defend a specific thing, unless that is a purpose of the group. An organization that focuses on defending an idea is likely less effective at doing entirely other things, which may be what pays the bills.)<br /><br />Zak also neglected to mention loss leaders as a marketing strategy, perhaps for lack of space.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-65029108087105016222016-07-12T13:03:20.663+08:002016-07-12T13:03:20.663+08:00I didn't see the word 'engineer' anywh...I didn't see the word 'engineer' anywhere, which is usually the first that comes to my mind on this topic.<br /><br />1. Incompetent engineers kill people. 2. Engineering might be defined as those problems of human life and death that can be solved with common sense and math. 3. Recently in history, people from several societies took practiced engineering in very serious manner. Doing this, and delivering, earned a lot of public trust. 4. This doesn't mean that there weren't many engineers being disciplined for all sorts of horrible things.<br /><br />It will be interesting to see what effects societal changes have on upcoming cohorts of engineers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-91507066418975959532016-07-12T10:43:00.145+08:002016-07-12T10:43:00.145+08:00Are the practical results of that anything _other_...Are the practical results of that anything _other_ than what we would call "quality service" ?<br />Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-34345591145522749802016-07-12T08:36:01.012+08:002016-07-12T08:36:01.012+08:00"You are not operating on my plane." scr..."You are not operating on my plane." screeched the hysterical rhombus at the geomatic surgeon. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00634904765971729083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-81494595598869156802016-07-12T06:08:31.163+08:002016-07-12T06:08:31.163+08:00@ Noisms:
Um...I agree with you (your original po...@ Noisms:<br /><br />Um...I agree with you (your original post). A lot of this other discussion is a little over my head, I'm afraid.<br />JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-10627289954112885472016-07-12T05:05:07.180+08:002016-07-12T05:05:07.180+08:00Neoliberalism is one of those terms that can mean ...Neoliberalism is one of those terms that can mean anything. We don't live in a 'neoliberal' society if that's how you choose to define it. The reality is thankfully a lot messier, I think. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-89632306028499015562016-07-12T04:59:28.163+08:002016-07-12T04:59:28.163+08:00Limbo?Limbo?noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-81262689975382506012016-07-12T04:24:05.012+08:002016-07-12T04:24:05.012+08:00The scourge of neoliberalism teaches us that the o...The scourge of neoliberalism teaches us that the only value of economic activity is maximized profits for the shareholders and bonus payments for the managers. You don't have to like it, but as it is famously known, "there is no alternative".Yorahttp://spriggans-den.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-62536446803900430892016-07-12T04:17:55.365+08:002016-07-12T04:17:55.365+08:00That's weak. You are not operating on my plane...That's weak. You are not operating on my plane.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-92147738993712858842016-07-12T04:14:01.482+08:002016-07-12T04:14:01.482+08:00Professional ethics of a barrister preclude him fr...Professional ethics of a barrister preclude him from asking his client if he's guilty or not. <br /><br />I would have thought anybody with half a brain who reads the blog regularly would know have figure out I'm a Tory. But keep tilting at your phantom virtue-signalling liberal left windmills by all means. You'll be telling me you're a Men's Rights Activist next.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-21676798877852491412016-07-12T04:10:14.581+08:002016-07-12T04:10:14.581+08:00Look you are no - isms, right? Or did I get that w...Look you are no - isms, right? Or did I get that wrong? You are a lawyer, is there such a one as an Ethical lawyer as you describe it? A lawyer who will tell the cops his client is a guilty cunt?<br /><br />I think you have, understandably, wobbled under the financial agitation of being an osr luminary. <br /><br />I couldn't care less if you make a fortune, but everyone so far who has tried to make money from this hobby has swiftly become a silly cunt, addressing a mob of fools.<br /><br />Turn back! Be a man!Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-14984571300684416092016-07-12T03:36:58.062+08:002016-07-12T03:36:58.062+08:00We are not talking about secretly purported self-d...We are not talking about secretly purported self-deluding acts of virtue. We are talking about you broadcasting your virtue by declaiming the proper way for accountants to behave ethically, even though it would exactly oppose their professional ethics.<br /><br />It is people like you, liberal winky wanky lefty wishy washy academics who have invited a complete dunce like Trump onto the stage because almost everyone in the western world is sick of politically correct virtue signalling, which is a sort of shitty religious mania. Can you imagine for a second that there is zero actual virtue in your thoughts, and all you can do is try to think as correctly as you can according to whatever intelligence you have.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-47132388633939944572016-07-12T03:19:01.468+08:002016-07-12T03:19:01.468+08:00I think there is more to it than quality, though. ...I think there is more to it than quality, though. There really are things like professional ethics and the image of the profession, and they do matter to a lot of individual professionals. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-14160242262288187402016-07-12T03:17:03.429+08:002016-07-12T03:17:03.429+08:00By definition virtue signalling means signalling. ...By definition virtue signalling means signalling. It is perfectly possible to act virtuously without signalling the fact that you are doing so. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-673802588638387492016-07-12T03:08:08.704+08:002016-07-12T03:08:08.704+08:00No. Virtue Signaling is a brilliant concept which ...No. Virtue Signaling is a brilliant concept which eviscerates feminists and SJW by drawing attention to their lack of interest in truth, and their lack of sophistication in investigating truth (lacking a hard-science education), since their entire concentration is on projecting an aura of NICENESS no matter how incoherent or illogical. Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-13816493567996928292016-07-12T02:56:27.229+08:002016-07-12T02:56:27.229+08:00this part was meant to address this use of "p...this part was meant to address this use of "professional" (as it is used OUTside primarily creative fields):<br />"<br />A lot of time when folks talk about "professional" they are using it as as a synonym for quality (production quality or content quality or customer service quality). I'd like to think that on this score we've been beyond professional at least as it's defined in this business, I haven't heard anyone disagree.<br /><br />However "professional" can also refer to the creators' priorities and style of behavior...<br />"<br />....and that's when I talk about how "professional" can mean bad things in creative projectsZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-24346576435044463352016-07-12T02:51:41.867+08:002016-07-12T02:51:41.867+08:00Kent, virtue signalling is only virtue signalling ...Kent, virtue signalling is only virtue signalling if it is done in the open. It's perfectly possible for people to think about the effects of their actions beyond the immediate horizon without it being virtue signalling. In fact, the knee jerk response of "You're just virtue signalling" is the mindset of a real undergraduate - a nice way of never having to actually think about the common good and a brilliant excuse for being a self-centred prick. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-6942521965679398942016-07-12T02:38:03.449+08:002016-07-12T02:38:03.449+08:00Nonsense. What about when accountant are acting as...Nonsense. What about when accountant are acting as auditors, or when a company enters administration? There have been numerous cases in which the accountants are caught between multiple competing interests - in which an ethical code beyond 'profit' would have be helpful. But I guess a pursuit of anything as repulsive as the common good is anathema.Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-75318656845417552582016-07-12T02:08:22.459+08:002016-07-12T02:08:22.459+08:00==Nobody is an accountant because they love accoun...==Nobody is an accountant because they love accountancy. <br /><br />That's a dumb thing to say.<br /><br />==But you can be an accountant who takes professional pride in providing an excellent and important service to his clients - and who also takes ethics seriously by not taking advantage of tax loopholes, say.<br /><br />That is cretinous. Professionals work as effectively as they can for their clients in whatever system they find themselves, and *that* is ethical. 'Ethical' as you use it is repulsive virtue signaling. Grow up, you are not an undergrad anymore. <br />Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-83994658226842692542016-07-12T01:19:14.640+08:002016-07-12T01:19:14.640+08:00Professionalism is more complicated than that, tho...Professionalism is more complicated than that, though. Sometimes it is about making money or impressing your boss, because you have duties in those areas. Nobody is an accountant because they love accountancy. But you can be an accountant who takes professional pride in providing an excellent and important service to his clients - and who also takes ethics seriously by not taking advantage of tax loopholes, say.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-38363118566696821642016-07-12T01:14:22.956+08:002016-07-12T01:14:22.956+08:00I never expected to see Talcott Parsons referenced...I never expected to see Talcott Parsons referenced in a comment on this blog!<br /><br />We are living in post-trust societies, if I can use so pretentious a term. For whatever reason, leaving anything to professional judgement is anathema in the modern day. I tend to think this has crowded out autonomous ethical thinking, with potentially disastrous results.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-23835638428724897982016-07-11T23:52:04.747+08:002016-07-11T23:52:04.747+08:00I assume Zak S would basically agree with you. It&...I assume Zak S would basically agree with you. It's a semantic issue. Your "professional pride" seems similar to what we might call Zak's "amateur pride." You do something well for the sake of it, not just to make money or impress your boss, etc.Oakes Spaldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08078500142758654392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-16118788736422667482016-07-11T23:44:45.080+08:002016-07-11T23:44:45.080+08:00Yes, it is shame that professional/ism has come to...Yes, it is shame that professional/ism has come to be used the way Zak S uses it. I hate the way that the injunction to 'be professional!' almost always means 'do what your boss says', rather than behave according to the standards of your 'profession'.<br /><br />But professions have been undermined, particularly since the late 1970s. Talcott Parsons imagined that it was the moral system of 'the professions' that would protect capitalist societies from being driven only by the cash nexus. Pity was, he imagined that the newly emerging class of 'professional' managers and executives would have some ethical code, whether explict or implicit, in the way that doctors, teachers, lawyers etc. [ought to] have. Hah!<br /><br />But as we strip away the right and responsibility for professions to act professionally - look at teachers; look how the scope of using professional judgement, or being respected as a professional capable of autonomous action, has been eroded - then there is little purpose to having a ethical code, as behaviour becomes increasingly determined by 'what the boss says'. Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.com