tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post3739328465589998088..comments2024-03-29T06:16:21.012+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: Sorry about the politics, but it's time to talk about ScotlandUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-49652774449131517782014-09-19T22:44:51.538+08:002014-09-19T22:44:51.538+08:00And this is no different than the situation in the...And this is no different than the situation in the US, where the set up of the Congress favors small, less populated states, yet these areas are the same ones who talk about secession and quite often make the same assumptions about everything staying the same, but... My use of "left-behind" has less to do with not getting their share and more to do with simply being the outsider opinion, in feeling you're not heard as much as you feel you deserve to be heard. On the gut level, it is hard to acknowledge that your region simply isn't that important in a democracy, because a democracy is ultimately about the majority or at least a collection of minorities who agree on some things. That your regional needs, despite being important to everyone where you live, are somewhat secondary to the larger thriving metropolitan areas, which have more people. I'm not sure this parallel applies in Britain, but the power dynamic is akin to the small town or neighborhood located near a big city. The same struggle for whether regional power is more important than local control (a.k.a any political unit small enough that my beliefs win.)<br /><br />Yeah I admit it sounds a bit insulting to be drawing parallels between Britain and county administration, but the dynamic is the same. Gort's Friendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08684913847135419951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-82575296526707838482014-09-19T16:58:43.312+08:002014-09-19T16:58:43.312+08:00You may be right about that but this idea that Sco...You may be right about that but this idea that Scots are the "left behind minority" is a complete myth. Scotland does much better out of the current constitutional arrangement than anywhere else in the UK. And now they've been promised more devolved powers after the 'no' vote they're going to do even better again. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-70472301095098450082014-09-19T00:46:35.057+08:002014-09-19T00:46:35.057+08:00It isn't just nationalism. There has always b...It isn't just nationalism. There has always been Scot's nationalism, just as every out of the way resident from Kentucky hill folk to Tuareg tribesmen want home rule as well, a feeling brought on by being the left behind minority in a larger nation.<br /><br />I think dismissing this all as caused by Braveheart, the cult of Bonny Prince Charlie, or even nostalgia for Labor's heyday is ignoring that much of this is based in the idea of the European Union. It isn't just the Scot's Nationialists, it is the people who don't see the point of the UK anymore. I think much of the support is from people who don't see the point of the UK and a London centered policy, in a world where NATO and the EU handle the biggest issues. <br /><br />It is the alliance of the nationalists with the globalists that is making this a possibility. Gort's Friendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08684913847135419951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-43499431675941167222014-09-18T17:37:43.344+08:002014-09-18T17:37:43.344+08:00You have no disagreement from me on that, I cannot...You have no disagreement from me on that, I cannot think of a good reason to have it, plenty of things that might seem like good reasons at the time.<br /><br />The main thrust of my argument is that identities are strong, mutable and should not be given up so easily, whether British politics gets blown to kingdom come or not, the British identity has survived worse.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04278455754046118073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-32580239246509937122014-09-17T17:46:39.881+08:002014-09-17T17:46:39.881+08:00Thanks for the comment. I understand that argument...Thanks for the comment. I understand that argument but I'm not persuaded by it at all. The message seems to be: if you don't like the government, secede. Great - I don't like the government either, so maybe I'll campaign for secession for Newcastle upon Tyne.... No, but wait, I don't like the Labour run council here either. Er... Fuck it, I want secession for myself! What happens when the people on the Western Isles decide they feel alienated by Holyrood? Secession! What a wonderful world it will be. We can just throw centuries of civic democracy out of the window, and our toys out of the pram into the bargain, whenever we happen not to get the government we most want.<br /><br />The honest truth of the matter is that Scottish nationalists are called nationalists for a reason: they can't extricate chauvinism and nationalism by pretending to be nice nationalists because their policies are a bit lefty. They're nationalists not because they dislike the mean old Tories but because they think Scotland is best off alone. That is by its nature divisive.<br /><br />The example of Ireland is an interesting one because if you ask people in Northern Ireland "are you all Irish?" I expect you'd get a rather mixed response. I also wonder about your Luxembourg example: does it mean that there are no German, Belgian or Luxembourgish national identities, then? noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-70093249850971021392014-09-16T23:50:06.168+08:002014-09-16T23:50:06.168+08:00Billy Bragg did a good article for the Guardian on...Billy Bragg did a good article for the Guardian on the difference between the nationalism getting everyone excited in Scotland and the right-wing Nationalism that people are much more familiar with. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class?CMP=twt_gu<br /><br />Basically, for us it is all about self-determination and an opportunity to escape from an elite-controlled, neoconservative Government and the chance to have the opportunity to try and make things better, even if that's going to be big and complicated task. Its nothing to do with 'the English' and everything to do with Westminster. Most people I know want to get the north of England, Cornwall, Wales and anyone else who'd like to join us to come along too!<br /><br />My brother-in-law's family live in Luxembourg, the do most of their shopping in Germany and like to go out in Belgium. Why does it need to be any different for us? We'd all still be British, as the northern and southern Irish are still all Irish. <br /><br />PS. Thanks for a great blog, and sorry for adding my comment if you're already sick of this politics... <br /><br />acahugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01881572943317017703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-20363899472373437572014-09-16T18:06:37.048+08:002014-09-16T18:06:37.048+08:00It's no different to that, which is why I comp...It's no different to that, which is why I compared it to a divorce. But a divorce is just about the most stressful of life events. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-14074361722399298292014-09-16T18:04:50.947+08:002014-09-16T18:04:50.947+08:00Except that it explodes and causes damage! ;)
A b...Except that it explodes and causes damage! ;)<br /><br />A border puts up a barrier, both physical and psychological, that simply does not need to be there. There is literally no good reason for it. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-26120136972721086652014-09-16T18:02:53.052+08:002014-09-16T18:02:53.052+08:00Me neither, but I don't understand why a borde...Me neither, but I don't understand why a border destroys anything either. I mean, it's a giant torpedo to the status quo of Westminster, but like a torpedo it's pretty much impossible to work out its effects.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04278455754046118073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-80713795906837707542014-09-16T17:20:17.529+08:002014-09-16T17:20:17.529+08:00Since noisms has already move on and resumed posti...Since noisms has already move on and resumed posting amazing Yoon-Suin material, I'll do the same. But first I'm afraid I must point to some misunderstadings. Catalonians speak Catalan and Spanish, it's not so rare for some regions in Europe to speak several languages. In fact, in Spain there are 10 languages. Spanish is just the one all regions have in common. Also, there is no Spain-Catalonian culture division, Spain is composed of 17 regions, each with its own identity and particularities, but all of them Spanish, in the same way that an Englishman is English an British, or a Welshman is Welsh and British.<br /><br />I know that this is something difficult to understand from outside, specially considering the poor job that the news are making of all this mess.<br /><br />However, at this point it seems that we'll have to agree to disagree. Since I have Catalonian family, this is painful for me, and as I said, I'll move on to more fun and games.Rodrigo Garcia Carmonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490579727883026920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-30436511254016842402014-09-16T14:00:01.149+08:002014-09-16T14:00:01.149+08:00Rodrigo, the US union is fraying at the seams and ...Rodrigo, the US union is fraying at the seams and not that many years ago in historical terms we fought a bloody war , probably illegal war to force it together, Its not all that it is cracked up to be and while nowhere near as strong as in Europe, the US has the same urge as Europe, one I think will only grow as the US shifts to a 3rd world model <br /><br />As for Catalonia, I am pleased to think it will be peaceful. There was violence and riots back in 2012 and earlier. I can easily see why they want their own nation. They don't speak Spanish and are a clearly identifiable culture and ethnicity of their own.<br /><br />As for the idea that travel cures nationalism, it depends, Many people,maybe most do not relish the kind of flexible bohemian lifestyle that the internal set does. They'd rather live, work and play around their own folks<br /><br />Rudyard Kipling's The Stranger sums up how so many of us think<br /><br />I'll post it here. <br />The Stranger within my gate,<br />He may be true or kind,<br />But he does not talk my talk–<br />I cannot feel his mind.<br />I see the face and the eyes and the mouth,<br />But not the soul behind.<br />The men of my own stock,<br />They may do ill or well,<br />But they tell the lies I am wanted to,<br />They are used to the lies I tell;<br />And we do not need interpreters<br />When we go to buy or sell.<br />The Stranger within my gates,<br />He may be evil or good,<br />But I cannot tell what powers control–<br />What reasons sway his mood;<br />Nor when the Gods of his far-off land<br />Shall repossess his blood.<br />The men of my own stock,<br />Bitter bad they may be,<br />But, at least, they hear the things I hear,<br />And see the things I see;<br />And whatever I think of them and their likes<br />They think of the likes of me.<br />This was my father’s belief<br />And this is also mine:<br />Let the corn be all one sheaf–<br />And the grapes be all one vine,<br />Ere our children’s teeth are set on edge<br />By bitter bread and wine.<br /><br />Now I have worked with people from all over the world, grown to respect other cultures , traveled a tad and am no one of those ugly Americans but I like most of the people who are pro succession want to live, work and play among my own kind and be governed by them. <br /><br />Not D.C , not the U.N people in my State. Here in California there is an active movement to break the state up. I am all for it, Its too big for dimwits in Sacramento to run the place, better to divest power <br /><br />Now granted the Scots situation is quite odd, I can't imagine why they'd want to leave the UK and join the EU. That makes no sense. <br /><br />For that matter, Brussels ought not be the HQ of the EU. Belgium while peaceful and functional doesn't have an actual government. Its just Flanders and Wallonia basically agreeing to pretend. <br /><br />Splitting those cultures would be sound really, they are a different people. <br /><br />And as for the land issue, yes Europe is crowded and many of the countries are flyspecks. That's OK, smaller is often better. Also nothing stops people from alliances and with aging in Europe , the old habits of internecine killing might just be reduced do the lack of young men too. <br />A.B. Prosperhttp://5stonegames.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-44068527047014049612014-09-16T06:13:20.637+08:002014-09-16T06:13:20.637+08:00How is it different to discovering that a girl doe...How is it different to discovering that a girl doesn't like you enough to remain formally attached anymore? First of all you should have been more aware of her not your feelings, secondly the formal attachment is false if it is not wanted. It is a fake attachment if the scots don't desire it.<br /><br />My point is that overnight nothing will change whatever the vote. The Scots will dislike the English to the same degree and the English will still cling to a nostalgic comfort blanket.<br /><br />The only real issue is the preposterous security complications but I assume at the level of security they are smart and well insulated.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-63320240504731785002014-09-16T06:00:30.650+08:002014-09-16T06:00:30.650+08:00Yes, talk of violence is a bit daft, I think, alth...Yes, talk of violence is a bit daft, I think, although obviously it's not that long ago that Basques were using violence in the name of separatism - so who knows? <br /><br />I share your fears, although I don't think a true European Union is the answer. The EU is the subsuming of national identity, which is the opposite extreme and to me just as dangerous.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-56630885899163210292014-09-16T05:58:07.908+08:002014-09-16T05:58:07.908+08:00Yes, we need to share this rock in the sea, so rea...Yes, we need to share this rock in the sea, so really, why on earth is a border a help? Why is division a good idea? I don't understand the logic.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-81533955738664882922014-09-16T05:56:52.120+08:002014-09-16T05:56:52.120+08:00Well yes, the British Isles will still be there, b...Well yes, the British Isles will still be there, but every piece of land will always be there: the piece of land you live on is only half of the equation. The rest of it is who you're governed by. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-43674888759750368062014-09-16T05:53:24.780+08:002014-09-16T05:53:24.780+08:00Kent, it sort of does matter to people in Belfast,...Kent, it sort of does matter to people in Belfast, wouldn't you say?<br /><br />Anyway, I take your point that Britain has been a political irrelevance for a long time but it's not irrelevant to those of us who live here. It's of the utmost importance. Otherwise we wouldn't be as obsessed with it as we are. Life will go on, of course it will, but we'll be much diminished. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-79269801328572592772014-09-16T05:40:33.772+08:002014-09-16T05:40:33.772+08:00As an Irishman I have to say it hardly matters one...As an Irishman I have to say it hardly matters one way or the other and the future would not have depended on this vote if it did mattered to any great degree. Have you read or seen the BBC Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy? Britain, never mind England, has been a political irrelevance outside of emotional nostalgia since WWII. Political blocks smaller than Europe-America-China are irrelevant.<br /><br />Aesthetically, as in Ireland the sense of an Island nation politically whole, complete and secure has its attractions but for individuals day to day it makes absolutely no difference. The Scot-Anglo emotional relationship, however it might currently be characterised, will be unaffected by any political change.<br /><br />Unwring your handies fella.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-12012504537813226132014-09-16T05:35:49.189+08:002014-09-16T05:35:49.189+08:00In my opinion nationalism is a dangerous thing. An...In my opinion nationalism is a dangerous thing. An incredibly dangerous thing. And the reason is in it's core, because what nationalism says, where it grows from, is an evil idea: that different people can't live together.<br /><br />Since I teach and research at a university I have a privilege that not many people in my country have: to be able to travel, live in other countries (not just be a tourist, you know, but to actually live there) and work hand to hand with all kind of foreigners. Those experiences have opened my eyes, and convinced me that more borders are always an error. As Pío Baroja, a fantastic spanish writer (and Vasque!) said: "Nationalism is a disease cured by travelling"<br /><br />Now, about Catalonia. In my opinion Catalonia will leave Spain if Scotland leaves the UK. And peacefully, by the way. I can't see a war here nowadays. In fact, I think that the "yes" of Scotland could trigger a chain reaction in the whole Europe. Almost every western european country has one (or more!) regions that play with the idea of leaving their countries. And where does that leads us to? A return of tiny feudal and antagonistic countries, medieval-style.<br /><br />What I'd love to see is a true European Union, something similar to the United States.<br /><br />For the record, I live in Madrid, but my mother's family is from Catalonia, and the speak Catalan.Rodrigo Garcia Carmonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490579727883026920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-12837974635101653182014-09-16T05:31:08.542+08:002014-09-16T05:31:08.542+08:00Thanks Ivan. Any day now, really. I'm just for...Thanks Ivan. Any day now, really. I'm just formatting the Appendices (I couldn't resist creating A-N of these....) and then it's a matter of slotting art work into the placeholders. Real life has an annoying habit of getting in the way.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-81453331935547430902014-09-16T03:10:08.840+08:002014-09-16T03:10:08.840+08:00Good lord. It requires a certain amount of fortitu...Good lord. It requires a certain amount of fortitude to no engage, but that is obviously the best course of action. Instead, I will write to say thanks much for your commitment to keeping the blog non-political, and that I am very much looking forward to Yoon-suin!Ivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923725063649465366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-52886135209107485202014-09-16T03:07:22.581+08:002014-09-16T03:07:22.581+08:00I'd call it Freedom, which is to say the right...I'd call it Freedom, which is to say the right to be governed by your own people and customs. Or your own jerks I suppose your remark about Braveheart is pot on, that's what Wallace was fighting for really. For a Scot to run things <br /><br />However re: Catalonia. If the Scotland leaves and I don't think it will it will be peaceful. Catalonia won't be allowed to go without bloodshed and if the US gets the same (its its growing here) neither will we, <br /><br />That's the sad part,<br /><br />Y'all in the UK at least are trying for the velvet divorce <br /><br />As for the upthread point about the curious nature of this, I agree. I can't see how this was allowed either. Heck maybe the UK no longer wants Scotland . Who knows. A.B. Prosperhttp://5stonegames.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-29222681262644985852014-09-16T03:00:46.023+08:002014-09-16T03:00:46.023+08:00Part 2 as I am a long winded bloviator
Upside he...Part 2 as I am a long winded bloviator <br /><br />Upside here, you do have a change to fix things, wither make people assimilate or kick them out. <br /><br />The US does not and its inexorably moving to a low trust, low stability society. <br /><br />Speaking for a different country, had Norway had no immigrants or maybe a few European and 1st world immigrants it would have no violent rapes. None, zero zed. <br /><br />As it is culture much immigration sacrifices girls and sometimes men for the idea that they can magically become part of something bigger, an idea of Americanism or being British or Norwegian.<br /><br /> Its bosh, immigrants including the Europeans that came to my country back in 19th century changed it in ways that made it drift far far from its roots.<br /><br /> The original Jeffersonian model would have strictly limited immigration but he same urge that forced slavery on the US (no slavery, no union) also brought in successive hordes of immigrants. It was at best unwise. At worst a disaster <br /><br />I'm sure the original Celtic Britons basically had the same experience as did the First Nations through more violent means.<br /><br />Now as for the idea that you even should create a multi-ethnic society driven by a proposition , Its White Man's burden 2.0 , its a foolish dream one as the tiny (3%!) Pakistani population of Rotherham and elsewhere and their PC supporters have shown. <br /><br />Pure Evil and its almost entirely driven by the need for secular values and traditions to be offered to people who don't want them. <br /><br />Faith might work but no work of man will, people rarely wish to change and once they have a base of support won't .<br /><br />This is not to say no one does, that's false but it does say the costs benefit analysis is skewed and any nation is better off with mostly its original inhabitants and maybe its diaspora returned home (maybe) As for values destruction, that's a Leftist doing , I'll say no more. <br /><br />That said it was a pleasure talking with you and there was a time we'd have agreed more closely but living in So-Cal has cured that idea for me. <br /><br />However if you every happen to be in my neck of the woods, we don't have pubs as you do and I am mostly a teetotaler but I'll sport ya a beer. <br /><br />Good gaming. A.B. Prosperhttp://5stonegames.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-20400668067077689402014-09-16T02:57:14.537+08:002014-09-16T02:57:14.537+08:00I apologize but this will be a two parter, the $%%...I apologize but this will be a two parter, the $%%$^&$ thing is heavily limited <br /><br />We certainly can agree to disagree on those matters and I apologize for any discourtesy . Its your blog after all.<br /><br /> I understand your point re: economics its part and parcel of the onus against Dame Thatcher, as I understand it her parties economic liberalism essentially destroyed the Working classes entry to the Middle and a good deal of the Middle as well. <br /><br />She basically brought back the old lack of social mobility.<br /><br /> That said, change was inevitable as automation increased jobs were going to go. You can't rely on stasis, at most you can delay the inevitable. People change.machines iterate Unless you have a ring of power of course ;) Than its a longer delay . <br /><br />Jokes aside in practice economics has little to do with morals, take Appalachia. Its among the poorest areas of the US per capita , many on government aid and fairly well armed with no strict gun laws yet is crime rate is much lower than the US (about 3/4 of the national average) and its often petty stuff like mild welfare fraud and the like . They are also ethnically drawn much from the Anglo-Scots, a group not noted for mild tempers . The reason? Christian Faith.<br /><br /> I don't see religions returning to the UK any time soon though, even Islam (not that that would help) or Asatru (which would be cool) but there you go.5 Stone Gameshttp://5stonegames.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-3226586298535302202014-09-16T02:02:44.671+08:002014-09-16T02:02:44.671+08:00I don't really have a strong opinion about thi...I don't really have a strong opinion about this particular instance, but, in general, I think it's a positive model for individual states to be able to choose what nation to be a part of from time to time. I suspect that it would increase competition between national government and generally improve how they function. It could discourage large nations from neglecting constituencies that aren't critical for their votes and just overall create a more more equitable system.<br /><br />So, even if you think that Scotland leaving the British Union is a mistake, perhaps it will set an example to be emulated elsewhere.<br /><br />Also, the British Isles will still be there so you can still identify as British, regardless of political lines. That said, I should mention that, while my mother's great aunt LOVED to brag about our descent from Mary Queen of Scots, it's far too distant a connection for me to have an emotional stake in the matter...Billyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16717291964764757651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-21221043020964984162014-09-15T23:19:33.126+08:002014-09-15T23:19:33.126+08:00The interesting thing is the actual practical affe...The interesting thing is the actual practical affect of these differences, a national border is likely to be extremely porous (assuming that Scotland is part of the EU) in a similar vein, seperate passports will allow the same level of access to the same places. Separate currencies will have the largest effect, but the again, currency exchange is pretty much no meaning to the average person so long as they have a plastic card and (optionally) enough maths to be able to convert from one currency to another. The major differences already exist. Today I am a brit, but I haven't benefitted from Scotland's free higher education, and I have not suffered from Scotland's health issues. Identity is chosen (if not by yourself then by your educators), just because a large number of people are opting out of the idea of Britian as an inclusive, cooperative idealistic place doesn't mean that the idea of Britian can't mean anything. Many people on both sides of the border have consitently chosen not to identify with that identity since it was first invented. Admittedly, you can choose, if Scotland does vote yes, to decide that the idea of Britian has no meaning anymore, but that is you abandoning the identity and possibly creating a self fulfilling prophecy.<br /><br />I thought I'd try a different tact and come up with some real world examples. Obviously examples of identities surviving despite borders encompasing several identities and having larger identities imposed upon them are plentiful. Identities that exist despite the existance of borders dividing those that hold them are a little rarer, but still exist. Diasporas are a fine example, and the Jewish identity is an example of one that has survived (not uncahanged, nothing remains unchanged) for millenia. Despite 100 years under British rule, Hong Kong still remained chinese. Both the German and Italian national identities grew up in environments with many borders, many different currencies and differant rights to travel.<br /><br />Unlike National identities nothing about Britishness is incompatable with independant government. The British still need to cooperate with each other, they still need to accept each others cultural values. In order to survive in the modern world they still need to be forward looking, scientific and rationally minded. We still need to understand that we need to share this rock in the sea otherwise we're both screwed.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04278455754046118073noreply@blogger.com