tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post3872858787764477405..comments2024-03-29T20:04:30.755+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: Vancian DetachmentUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-10228612804857031062012-02-29T07:09:26.206+08:002012-02-29T07:09:26.206+08:00Barking Alien: I wasn't offended - you'd k...<b>Barking Alien</b>: I wasn't offended - you'd know if I was. It doesn't happen easily. I was just pointing out you were getting into badwrongfun territory - although then again so am I. I think in deliberately and cooperatively setting up games to be like TV or comic book series you're breaking the fourth wall and doing something a bit different to what I meant - I'm talking about GM-centric story where the players expect the GM to tightly plot an entertaining narrative. I think that puts a lot of pressure on the GM and rarely comes off.<br /><br /><b>Josh W</b>: Yeah, we need the quorum of players because the character-centric nature of the game sort of precludes people just coming and going. Although it might be possible. We just haven't tried it.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-5071799113869704422012-02-29T06:17:51.561+08:002012-02-29T06:17:51.561+08:00I've gone with both, (gives self pat on back) ...I've gone with both, (gives self pat on back) but this version is so much easier for picking days.<br /><br />"Can't make it? Ok, we'll tell you what happened when you get back."<br /><br />rather than having to regig finely balanced relationship webs or whatever.<br /><br />I imagine your Cyberpunk game shifts more towards being about the character's weirdnesses, and so is not quite as easy to chop and change.Josh Wnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-436032102713159322012-02-28T08:02:44.518+08:002012-02-28T08:02:44.518+08:00I'm apologize. I often forgot that words on th...I'm apologize. I often forgot that words on the internet offend more easily then they do in real life and that assumptions are made more easily as well. I will amend my comments...<br /><br />"My players **and only my players so far as I am aware** don't want to be emotionally detached from their characters, the setting or the story. If they did they could go play video games **as they and I, and as far as I am aware within the realm of reasonable doubt, only they and I** feel there is less of an emotional attachment there then there is in RPGs)."<br /><br />Now this...<br /><br />"I also don't believe getting a story out of an RPG campaign is an 'unrealistic expectation'. We do it all the time. Did it Saturday. Will do it again next session."<br /><br />...I stand behind as you don't know my games, my GMing style or my players' play style. We pattern our sessions like TV episodes or issues of a comic book. Have for many, many years. So yes, it is not unrealistic to have the games feel like a film, novel or short story.<br /><br />'Not unrealistic' does not mean easy but it likewise doesn't mean just short of impossible. It means if you take care to do so it works, especially if you've been doing it for 15 years or so.<br /><br />I mean, I don't understand why or how people enjoy the standard D&D dungeon crawl but that doesn't mean I think it can't be enjoyed or that it's unrealistic to think someone could make one I would think is fun.Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-86366215192409255992012-02-28T06:08:23.184+08:002012-02-28T06:08:23.184+08:00Yep, what Thomas M said. You can call "a bunc...Yep, what Thomas M said. You can call "a bunch of stuff happened, and it was fun and interesting" a story if you want, but that's a different thing to a plot with a beginning, middle and end. I think we all know what that difference is - we just might give the two things different names.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-48325810284708116882012-02-28T03:29:07.002+08:002012-02-28T03:29:07.002+08:00To be fair, I don't think noisms is saying tha...To be fair, I don't think noisms is saying that there isn't any emotional attachment at all (it's doubtful that anybody will feel nothing on the death of a character, for example); more that the game isn't predicated on it.<br /><br />Which absolutely is not like playing videogames, because even if you are playing pen and paper with a simulationist bent, the number of verbs* alone makes a difference of several orders of magnitude.<br /><br />And there's some sort of conflict between "story" and "narrative" here -- I tend to think of the first as "predetermined series of events" and the second as "wot happened" (much like how noisms recounts a session of playing a videogame).<br /><br />* Where 'verbs' = "How can I interact with this"Thomas M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13248298143309606444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-21792807905639777382012-02-28T00:33:58.563+08:002012-02-28T00:33:58.563+08:00In my very limited experience, first-person shoote...In my very limited experience, first-person shooters are routinely 'immersive' in a way that pen-and-paper RPGs aren't.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-71049192198365633182012-02-28T00:29:52.838+08:002012-02-28T00:29:52.838+08:00Also, the Dying Earth seemed to me to be like a se...Also, the Dying Earth seemed to me to be like a series of encounters, where the individual 'bits' were what made it cool rather than an overall story arc.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-90331549437031857352012-02-27T23:51:08.902+08:002012-02-27T23:51:08.902+08:00And it also ignores the fact that plenty of video ...And it also ignores the fact that plenty of video games involve emotional engagement with the story and characters (viz: Final Fantasy).<br /><br />Basically, I'd like you to rethink that comment entirely.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-12269523267898271262012-02-27T23:50:18.020+08:002012-02-27T23:50:18.020+08:00I should add, by the way, that it's absurd to ...I should add, by the way, that it's absurd to imply that the only difference between an RPG and a video game is that the latter involves being "emotionally detached from [the] characters, the setting or the story" and the former does not. There are approximately 10 billion other differences on top of that, I would suggest.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-46182870320906418602012-02-27T23:46:10.397+08:002012-02-27T23:46:10.397+08:00Barking Alien: My players don't want to be emo...<b>Barking Alien</b>: <i>My players don't want to be emotionally detached from their characters, the setting or the story. If they did they could go play video games.</i><br /><br />Thanks for informing me that my gaming style is akin to playing video games. I really appreciate that.<br /><br /><i>I also don't believe getting a story out of an RPG campaign is an 'unrealistic expectation'. We do it all the time. Did it Saturday. Will do it again next session.</i><br /><br />Well, anything can be a 'story' insofar as stuff happens in a chronological order and events flow from each other. On that basis, indeed, a session in front of a <b>video game</b> is a story too, is it not? "First I shot some monsters. Then I found a key and unlocked a door. Then I shot some more monsters. Then I got a better gun. Then I shot some more monsters. The End."<br /><br />When I say 'story' I think it's obvious that I'm referring to something resembling a short story, novel, play or film. It's the desire for <i>that</i> which puts unnecessary pressure on everyone concerned.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-25473788589645217092012-02-27T22:31:58.066+08:002012-02-27T22:31:58.066+08:00Got to agree with Greyhawk Knight here but I will ...Got to agree with Greyhawk Knight here but I will go one further.<br /><br />My players don't want to be emotionally detached from their characters, the setting or the story. If they did they could go play video games.<br /><br />I also don't believe getting a story out of an RPG campaign is an 'unrealistic expectation'. We do it all the time. Did it Saturday. Will do it again next session.<br /><br />I liked Vance's work when I read it 30 something years ago and I love Philip K. Dick but Vance is harder for me to get into in recent years.Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-14045439728193913292012-02-27T18:33:32.905+08:002012-02-27T18:33:32.905+08:00Sorry, but I am not with you.
I tried to read &qu...Sorry, but I am not with you.<br /><br />I tried to read "Lyonesse" once (after being very well entertained by "The Dying Earth") and I very much liked the beginning of the book. But then RL intervened and I had to put the book aside for a few weeks.<br />When I got back to it I found myself lost, and couldn't get back "into" the story, and the weird world.Greyhawk Knightnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-90213052533803007792012-02-27T13:46:43.676+08:002012-02-27T13:46:43.676+08:00Of course this isn't the first time this has c...<i>Of course this isn't the first time this has come up in your comments and no doubt someone will say they like the styleless-but-emotionally-involving-stories and give examples. Well: we like different things.</i><br /><br />I tend to feel that in emotionally-involving stories that I do enjoy it is by means of the style that the story/characters are made emotionally involving anyway.Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09873430636366896071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-20989439960766505422012-02-27T08:01:22.872+08:002012-02-27T08:01:22.872+08:00While I wasn't going explicit with the detachm...While I wasn't going explicit with the detachment angle, I was trying to make a very similar point here:<br /><br />http://tabletoponthedesktop.blogspot.com/2012/02/actors-versus-generals.htmlJoe Johnstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08847388615721715893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-14371646915794477552012-02-27T04:42:26.867+08:002012-02-27T04:42:26.867+08:00I've been rereading a lot of P.K. Dick lately,...I've been rereading a lot of P.K. Dick lately, and I get a similar sense that while there are characters that he wants you to be involved with or invested in, he's writing more about the structures and the systems they are struggling through. Most of the novels don't really have a happy ending, even if the protagonist sort of gets by in the end (e.g., 3 Stigmata, Flow my Tears, Divine Invasion), because the universe has been shown to be a construct of madness, alienation and paranoia, and it's beyond anyone's control. So bad things do happen to the characters, no matter how much the reader wants them to succeed and to have the problems resolves nicely. Sorry, the universe, your existence, your mind, are all broken. Hope for the best.Spawn of Endrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10431848914619887998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-83428977068268672132012-02-27T04:37:17.100+08:002012-02-27T04:37:17.100+08:00I'll agree that Vance's style is dry, but ...I'll agree that Vance's style is dry, but it's not without arousing feeling in the reader, especially if you step outside the Dying Earth novels and run across one of his sympathetic protagonists. What he is very good at is describing situations of yearning, injustice, loss, triumph, or anxiety, but communicating feeling almost entirely through the situation instead of through physical or language descriptions. <br /><br />Yes, this is a trait of good RPG adventure writing, too; it forbears from the kind of mind-probing that the late 80's and 90's were notorious for (boxed text: "You feel an indescribable sorrow come over you ...")Roger G-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-3874712110461646652012-02-27T02:16:40.373+08:002012-02-27T02:16:40.373+08:00Absolutely.
It's all about style.
"Wait...Absolutely.<br /><br />It's all about style.<br /><br />"Wait, you're telling me I just lost my whole left arm?"<br />"Well, let's say it's undergone a Vancian Detachment."<br /><br />_____________<br /><br />I will kick the can further down the road by saying that a degree of Detachability (if not always mandatory Detachment) is a hallmark of every book I like.<br /><br />At some point, when I was young, while watching some movie (Apocalypse Now?) I realized for the first time that the tragic things that were happening to characters I liked in the story were happening because _they had to happen in that story for it to be that story_ and so if I felt a pang about it, I had to let it go and be more happy that the story itself was unfolding and being good.<br /><br />In other words, I realized not every story is Star Wars.<br /><br />Forever after that I started noticing that critics I considered kinda weenie & exhausting & wrong started their reviews by telling you how wonderful and involving the _characters_ or _story_ were whereas ones I liked pointed me toward books I'd like by talking about _how the story was told_.<br /><br />Of course this isn't the first time this has come up in your comments and no doubt someone will say they like the styleless-but-emotionally-involving-stories and give examples. Well: we like different things.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.com