tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post4351237804794508780..comments2024-03-28T22:10:04.089+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: On the Uses and Abuses of 'Community'Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-75451938597161635022019-03-29T06:57:53.537+08:002019-03-29T06:57:53.537+08:00I blame social media supplanting niche fandom foru...I blame social media supplanting niche fandom forums. Then again messageboards aren't exactly paradise as they invariable turn into a pisshole of abusive mods desperate to exercise the power they lack in real life.Bob Somethinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13638406211956979341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-13895360175222657392019-03-27T05:29:10.120+08:002019-03-27T05:29:10.120+08:00Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying it is ...Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying it is impossible to have online friendships or friendship groups. I think maybe you are conflating a friendship group with what I would call a community. To me the point of a community is that the people in it are not close enough to be friends. They're not a community because they like each other or have interests in common (though they may do) but because they share social proximity and certain unspoken norms which they generally adhere to. It is hard to replicate that online because it comes from living in one place alongside certain people for an extended period of time.<br /><br />In other words community is more about geographic location than about friendship or shared interests (although obviously it's not *just* about location).noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-53225360947048974812019-03-27T05:23:21.113+08:002019-03-27T05:23:21.113+08:00I would say the OSR thing is better understood as ...I would say the OSR thing is better understood as a "scene" - a large undefined group with a shared interest, which is open and fluid in its membership and with a few influential voices.<br /><br />Catholics I would call a religion. ;) A single parish church might be more in the way of a community.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-78535572933710242132019-03-27T05:18:22.282+08:002019-03-27T05:18:22.282+08:00I see that it's nice that smaller communities ...I see that it's nice that smaller communities don't require spokespeople. I don't think spokespeople are always bogus, but there's definitely always a risk. But in any case, I don't see why this non-susceptibility should be made the hallmark of community. I think the main argument for your definition of community is actually that life is made richer only by IRL relations.<br /><br />But let's take the case we're actually talking about. Suppose I interact regularly on social media with someone in a group of people who share some interests and overlap, perhaps forming clusters with lots of criss-crossing connections. Suppose I run and play in online games with this person, and a whole bunch of other people. Suppose I regularly share in his thoughts, discuss his ideas, etc. Suppose I even collaborate on something with him. There is a way in which I share much more with him than I share with my lovely next door neighbor, Vera. Suppose though that I have never met him IRL. <br /><br />Now suppose that there are a definite number of other people that stand on some spectrum of relations like that both with one another and with me. Why wouldn't that be a community? In some ways it makes my life richer than my relationship to Vera, as much as I like having that relation. After all, we play games together, share information, collaborate, and so on, and those are all enriching things. Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-66127018303206628852019-03-26T14:00:05.268+08:002019-03-26T14:00:05.268+08:00Probably partly also not as many people you know I...Probably partly also not as many people you know IRL being on the internet so you end up interacting more with strangers. I remember having a whole slew of people on ICQ who I talked to regularly who I had never met IRL but can't remember the last person I've swapped chatty PMs with who I only knew online. Even some people I worked on a worldbuilding project with for a long time I never added on social media or interacted with in any other way. Strange how much things shift in such a short time.Boshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06908715118408289864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-20498188898319715812019-03-26T03:46:54.741+08:002019-03-26T03:46:54.741+08:00I agree.
The "community" word is very h...I agree.<br /><br />The "community" word is very hazily defined, its modern connotations subject to a lot of torsion and abusive usage when someone is on the hoodwink.Drainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09724863160300686402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-32932220866637405712019-03-26T02:29:51.461+08:002019-03-26T02:29:51.461+08:00Isn't it useful to have a term to describe som...Isn't it useful to have a term to describe some of those sorts of groups though? I.e., collections of people who share one or more interests or values.<br /><br />I understand the objection to using the word "community" on the ground that it tends to conflate those arbitrarily defined groups with more traditional face-to-face communities. <br /><br />But if the collection of OSR folks is not a "community" what is it? If the worldwide collection of Catholics is not a "community" what is it?Ivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923725063649465366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-13090212865500477512019-03-26T02:23:27.636+08:002019-03-26T02:23:27.636+08:00Community, tribe, nation, whatever...it's a tr...Community, tribe, nation, whatever...it's a trick. You evolved social instincts to relate to the Dunbar's Number of people in your hunter-gatherer band--which is just code for extended family. But there is always someone preying on those emotions to get you to invest in a bunch of strangers. Usually because they are going to profit from it at your expense. Don't fall for it. Treat strangers politely and save emotional investment for the people you actually know.jamescbennetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06603912011980275273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-29000687623629278772019-03-25T21:14:38.027+08:002019-03-25T21:14:38.027+08:00I take your point that some people grow up where t...I take your point that some people grow up where there is no community at all (I would put it that way rather than saying there is a hostile community) or for some other reason can't partake in community and loneliness together is better than pure loneliness. That's natural but I don't think it is remotely ideal. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-30118622583342058842019-03-25T21:10:05.111+08:002019-03-25T21:10:05.111+08:00Other definitions of the word "community"...Other definitions of the word "community" I mean. I actually think it is bad to talk about "working-class communities" as though that actually means something. Nuance matters.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-57444575577460060802019-03-25T21:09:31.526+08:002019-03-25T21:09:31.526+08:00Well, it's because obviously I think those oth...Well, it's because obviously I think those other definitions are undesirable. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-22242279099189560862019-03-25T21:08:50.117+08:002019-03-25T21:08:50.117+08:00Yeah, I strongly agree with that. Yeah, I strongly agree with that. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-14144528614261099782019-03-25T21:07:48.089+08:002019-03-25T21:07:48.089+08:00I remember those days vaguely too. I do think it&#...I remember those days vaguely too. I do think it's scale partly, and also just more options - I remember when basically all there really was to do online was visit Yahoo geocities to look at Mr T vs Everything comics. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-444348890313008822019-03-25T21:03:58.325+08:002019-03-25T21:03:58.325+08:00Yeah, the transience is something that really alie...Yeah, the transience is something that really alienates me as time goes on. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-18922690565543655962019-03-25T12:59:36.849+08:002019-03-25T12:59:36.849+08:00I think online friendships are entirely possible: ...I think online friendships are entirely possible: Somewhat different in form, certainly, but possible nonetheless. Community, though? I'd agree that this one is a good amount more difficult. I've been involved in enough stuff online to agree with the sentiment that wider "communities" of people are lacking.<br /><br />On the other hand, I'm not sure if an online community can't happen at all. I can think of one - a chat group I've been with for about twelve years - that strikes me as closer to the ideal you describe: effectively self-moderating; different politics; different ages (presently, if I'm not mistaken: from 14 to 28); and different reasons for being there. The chat had a purpose, twelve years ago. It hasn't for some time, besides a place to discuss. I'd never call it a replacement for dealing with people in meatspace, since I think the two are effectively different: I don't, however, know if I would consider it inherently inferior.<br /><br />Instead, I think it's more a matter of different purpose. In physical space, it can be difficult to confide certain things to normal people. Few are the neighbors who would appreciate a drunk man showing up at 1am to vent on their front lawn. On the other hand, a online group gives a degree of anonymity - the amount set to a person's taste - which makes that sort of thing possible. There's also the reverse side to your point of not choosing your community: Some people grow up in places where the surrounding community is actively hostile, and their ability to connect with people elsewhere is a godsend. Being lonely together is still loneliness, but it's a better sort than having nobody.<br /><br />I will agree fully that - on the point of 'choose your own anonymity' - any social media platform, or other online group built around people's full identity, can never be a true community. It is, at best, the hollow reflection of something in the real world. The same goes for any online group that permits the rise of internal celebrities, or any where a form of 'like' function or 'sort by popularity' exists.Rosenritterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05708668233952612105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-40566350056281424792019-03-24T22:41:05.369+08:002019-03-24T22:41:05.369+08:00I understand being uneasy with self-appointed peop...I understand being uneasy with self-appointed people that claim to speak for a group and the lack of nuance that can be given to a body of people. The word "community" though, in official contexts doesn't have the narrow definition given above. The one used above is just one of many you will find listed. Sometimes, it is even group with types of "communities" that are invalidated in the above blog post in the same entry in the list of definitions. I don't understand writing from a perspective that invalidates all the others.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073293176525195996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-8844454983100195402019-03-24T10:58:14.520+08:002019-03-24T10:58:14.520+08:00I don't trust people who are so quick to decla...I don't trust people who are so quick to declare a group of loosely affiliated people a 'community' as they are usually the first to try to enforce who gets to be part of it and how they engage. The idea, for example, that I'd share a 'community' with the likes of Zak or Pundit or Venger (to use the more infamous example) is ludicrous. What I share with them is a hobby and maybe a few overlapping interest (namely tabletop RPG, especially of the OSR).<br /><br />When they do something bad they are not my responsibility just because we happen to loosely like loosely similar things. To say we do is like saying I've got a 'community' with, say, every single metalhead I've never interacted with in my life because I like to blast some old metal when I'm bored. Other people are not my responsibility. I don't owe people an apology even when the offense is real anymore than I would need to apologize if a serial killer was found to be addicted to Oreo cookies (a weakness of mine!) or Beef Jerky or the fact we both listened to Sabaton or something.<br /><br />Ultimately we don't swear loyalty to every single other person sharing a similar hobby anymore than they swear loyalty to us. This ain't a political party its just a damn hobby of nerds and older nerds rolling funny shaped dice.Bob Somethinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13638406211956979341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-11539975001197753182019-03-24T09:56:01.675+08:002019-03-24T09:56:01.675+08:00So much of the sales pitch, whatever might be on s...So much of the sales pitch, whatever might be on sale and by whom, is based around trying to mimic that closeness and community. "You can trust me. I'm acting and sounding like someone you've known for a long time." <br /><br />We have a lot of ancient, band dwelling wiring that glib advertisers & demagogues know how to tug on. Not all of it is harmful or malevolent, but to quote Rush: "I can't pretend a stranger is a long awaited friend." Y'don't have to be paranoid, just alert. <br /><br />Yeah, cities are awesome, but it's a good idea not to get too comfortable there. Even when I was younger I usually felt kinda burned out and ready for a nap after I got home from a jaunt into town. It's work, even if you're doing something fun. You're out in the forest on the hunt, Og, not sitting back in the cave with the family around the campfire. Don't get 'em confused. BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-80840069632446138442019-03-24T09:43:41.382+08:002019-03-24T09:43:41.382+08:00Most of the people who I'm closest to online a...Most of the people who I'm closest to online are people I knew in person but no longer live close enough to. That, to me, is what this tech is for. BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-87380692059982789782019-03-24T09:24:09.742+08:002019-03-24T09:24:09.742+08:00This shit is making me feel so old.
I remember w...This shit is making me feel so old. <br /><br />I remember way back when I first started on the internet back when "OMG, I'm talking to someone from another country" was amazing I was a part of a community a lot like your neighborhood. Even met a couple people on it later face to face. Don't really see that much happening anymore.<br /><br />Not sure what the big difference is. Maybe online "communities" are so big that people can't remember everyone anymore, maybe those giant 90's signature gifs helped up remember who is who better, or maybe the average person is just spread across different communities. But, for example I've got north of 5,000 posts on rpg.net, for example, and I don't think that much of anyone remembers who I am from post of post and I haven't made any online "friends" in I don't know how long.<br /><br />On the other hand the internet has gotten much much much better at finding people nearby. Pretty much all of my friends except some ex-colleagues were people I met by posting online, but often I barely talked to them before meeting them face to face.Boshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06908715118408289864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-91004341656761496582019-03-24T06:11:50.650+08:002019-03-24T06:11:50.650+08:00The lack of a face-to-face connection is huge, yea...The lack of a face-to-face connection is huge, yeah. It's also probably in part because of how much extra effort it takes to drive down and spend time with people in a physical space vs. just clicking on a website; you're more invested. Internet communities are a lot more transient as a result. I've had people who I've been talking on forums with for months just disappear and I shrugged because whatever, it's the internet. I figured they probably either got bored or had more important obligations.<br /><br />If that happened with a friends in real life I would go knock on their door and make sure they weren't dead.Slick S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07061439646397481013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-34097166994992812112019-03-24T04:11:58.871+08:002019-03-24T04:11:58.871+08:00One of the big mistakes people make is thinking th...One of the big mistakes people make is thinking that they can get that level of familiarity with people they know online. I don't believe you can. I don't mean that online friendship is impossible - but online community of the type I know in my street is.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-59639843523610642272019-03-24T04:10:02.922+08:002019-03-24T04:10:02.922+08:00I often think the same thing. One of my pet hates ...I often think the same thing. One of my pet hates is the phrase "we as a society". Whenever I see that sort of thing I instantly start thinking...nah. This person doesn't get it. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-29825224739758576872019-03-24T04:08:37.703+08:002019-03-24T04:08:37.703+08:00I completely agree. And don't get me wrong, I ...I completely agree. And don't get me wrong, I like going to cities. I wouldn't want to be without them entirely. But there's a reason why the middle of e.g. London is not a good place to raise kids. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-73186428515476441732019-03-24T04:07:21.266+08:002019-03-24T04:07:21.266+08:00I agree with you entirely. A lot of life's pro...I agree with you entirely. A lot of life's problems go away when you have real social connections.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.com