tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post490039738562605193..comments2024-03-29T06:16:21.012+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: Amorality in the Sandbox and GM as Performing MonkeyUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-511679090400140772010-01-09T09:19:09.169+08:002010-01-09T09:19:09.169+08:00Trey: I think you're right about some games an...<b>Trey</b>: I think you're right about some games and genres being better than others... though I think traditional Star Trek (exploring strange new worlds, shagging strange new species) <i>can</i> be sandboxy. <br /><br />I think as well as superhero games, another non-sandbox genre would be Tolkien gaming. You could perfectly well play a rogueish sandbox type game in Middle Earth, I suppose, but that would be missing out entirely on the flavour of what Tolkien's writing is all about.<br /><br /><b>Chgowiz</b>: Yep, I think that a lot of the rebellious sentiment in places like the Forge and Story Games towards traditional gaming should really be directed at the Silver Age games (AD&D 3rd edition, Vampire: The Masquerade, etc.), which seemed to conceptualise the GM as a storyteller, than against genuinely old school ones. <br /><br /><b>Stuart</b>: Horses for courses, of course. But I think the type of sandbox you described ("You guys are milling around in town - *what do you do?*") is pretty much impossible for mere mortals to pull off effectively - it's really the platonic sandbox, if you will. In practice there needs to be something to kick start things. What I usually do for that is to give each player a couple of starting rumours, which they can discuss amongst themselves and decide on a course of action. After that things tend to flow from there.<br /><br /><b>Muleabides</b>: Nicely put.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-246994426940468892010-01-09T07:12:15.649+08:002010-01-09T07:12:15.649+08:00I quite agree that story-games and old-school sand...I quite agree that story-games and old-school sandboxing are different routes to the same place; soon now my <a href="http://muleabides.wordpress.com/2009/10/07/random-events-make-you-say-yes-to-links/" rel="nofollow"><i>FO!</i> piece on improv as a tool common to both traditions</a> will come along.<br /><br />I think it's worth noting the tradeoffs of each approach. Our Red Box group played <i>Shock: Social Science Fiction</i>, and although I found that we collaboratively came up with a very out-there setting, I disliked how playing it felt more like doing the work of an author in a shared-world anthology than getting to experience being a character in a story.<br /><br />Some of the folks we played with have gotten sick of the narrow range of settings & situations that D&D usually explores (fortunately I love genre fiction and can find endless fascination in riding a favorite well-worn groove). But I think it's exactly this narrow range that lets your player's role as creator fade into the experience of "being there". Knowing the tune by heart is necessary for play to feel like a flowing jam session instead of an indie-designed committee meeting.<br /><br />To respond to Stuart's point, it'd be as stressful for me to referee a sandbox superheroes game as it would to puppet-master a railroad, because I haven't read the requisite 10,000 issues of comics to know what happens in a villain's lair: I'd need a map. But I do have that background for D&D, so I'm already thoroughly familiar with what might be in a dungeon or a tavern & it's easy and fun to improv it. - TavisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-82565600875618384402010-01-09T00:48:26.150+08:002010-01-09T00:48:26.150+08:00Sandbox gaming is only less work if you're mak...Sandbox gaming is only less work if you're making stuff up on the fly. You could end up being just as much of a performing monkey if you have to spend the evening making up stuff based on your players whims. "No, we don't go into the dungeon you have a map for... we go to the bar and pick fights instead"<br /><br />Old School modules with a map + key (eg the 'B' series) don't presuppose you're a shining hero, but they also limit the range of activity to something a bit more manageable. I'm happy with the players having freedom of action within the confines of some sort of "adventure". <br /><br />I'd rather start the game with "your party is leaving from Guido's Fort to cross the River Shrill and explore 'The Hill'" than "You guys are milling around in town - *what do you do?*"<br /><br />There's nothing wrong with the second option if that's what your group likes, but I know some of my players would tune out, and I know I'd personally find a game like that to be a lot more work.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-6149636471561156732010-01-09T00:12:58.906+08:002010-01-09T00:12:58.906+08:00But the end result is more or less the same.
Amen...<i>But the end result is more or less the same.</i><br /><br />Amen. (and utterly ironic)Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-81701049103347642402010-01-08T19:43:08.616+08:002010-01-08T19:43:08.616+08:00You make a good point--non-sandbox does put more r...You make a good point--non-sandbox does put more responsibility on the DM.<br /><br />And an aside, I think some games/genres (superhero games, Star Trek) have implicit or explicit plots and don't tend to work as well for sandbox play. Which is why I think both tend to only work well when both palyers and GM have a strong affinity for the source material, and so confirm their behavior and expectations to the genre.<br /><br />I think certain fantasy genres might work similarly. One <i>might</i> be able to play a reasonably effective "epic" with player's steeped in the genre, and desirous of that sort of game, but less knowledgeable or less interested player's will most often chafe.Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.com