tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post6199071892663172338..comments2024-03-29T20:04:30.755+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: CRPGs and the Silver AgeUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-44358025358703192342019-06-11T04:17:33.121+08:002019-06-11T04:17:33.121+08:00I have another post in mind about sandboxes in old...I have another post in mind about sandboxes in old PC games.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-29083802872971997402019-06-11T04:17:00.091+08:002019-06-11T04:17:00.091+08:00I think he may have gone back the other direction ...I think he may have gone back the other direction with Cyberpunk 2077?noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-35650897750163217222019-06-09T07:04:31.760+08:002019-06-09T07:04:31.760+08:00Thou art greater! Ultimas 4 thru 6 were way ahead ...Thou art greater! Ultimas 4 thru 6 were way ahead of their time, imo.<br /><br />They had multiple parallel plot strands and very elegantly combined the mechanical aspects of leveling up (and finding reagents, special equipment, etc) with moving around to explore the world and advancing the plot. <br /><br />To this day, very few games even attempt this, let alone succeed at it. Jorunkunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09426891713637954230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-15738610600621018632019-06-09T00:05:09.788+08:002019-06-09T00:05:09.788+08:00I realize that balance was always a topic of discu...I realize that balance was always a topic of discussion, it's human nature to constantly feel shortchanged by our circumstances and desire reform.<br /><br />The route the designers take to accomplish balance is important though. There's a difference between adjusting magic effects/treasure amounts and changing the whole structure of a class's abilities. Giving the fighter a list of limited-use "powers" to expend isn't really something that shows up until 3.5's Tome of Battle.<br /><br />https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tome_of_Battle:_The_Book_of_Nine_Swords<br /><br />They mention Final Fantasy as a specific inspiration, and martial/magical balance as a specific design goal.<br /><br />Also, regarding 4E, this isn't information straight from the designers themselves, but it's from Mike Mearls which is pretty dang close. Skip to "On the subject of exact rules":<br /><br />https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8309:Slick S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07061439646397481013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-85250892330148333102019-06-08T18:06:51.183+08:002019-06-08T18:06:51.183+08:00It's just that in early games optimization did...It's just that in early games optimization didn't matter too much unless you went out and looked for it. In 3.*ed it was a lot more likely to pop up and slap you in the face in terms of people accidentally making characters much weaker or stronger than the party average.Boshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06908715118408289864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-4019258935342895492019-06-08T08:02:29.614+08:002019-06-08T08:02:29.614+08:00It's a bit off of your point, but I read this,...It's a bit off of your point, but I read this, and remembered Gygax going on about "balance" and Monty Haul campaigns, and decided to go through my Dragon magazines to see how far I got before I found a reference to game balance. <br /><br />I got to issue #3, from October 1976, in a letter from a reader who said, in reference to a LotR game, "Finally, the 1.5 range and effects advantage of Noldorin magic-users in Smith’s system is much too large and unbalances the game, with no justification from the source. The system below follows Tolkien more closely and fits better with a balanced campaign."<br /><br />There were plenty of discussions of balance back in the day. Any suggestion that 4e had the market cornered on obsessing over it is pure revisionism.<br /><br />Sorry if that is a bit of a rant, but it's a sore spot with me, along with the idea that optimization began with 3e. (How is your 1e paladin liking his girdle of storm giant strength, gauntlets of ogre power and hammer of thunderbolts?)Beorichttps://campaignunderdeconstruction.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-22230151372226103802019-06-08T04:46:27.044+08:002019-06-08T04:46:27.044+08:00Well part of the reason for balance obsession was ...Well part of the reason for balance obsession was that 3ed had very serious balance problems that 3.5ed didn't really fix. You don't have to be a pedantic nerd to realize there is a problem if a druid's animal companion is sometimes as powerful as another PC.Boshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06908715118408289864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-66839215959438075692019-06-08T04:03:51.567+08:002019-06-08T04:03:51.567+08:00Mike Pondsmith of Cyberpunk/Mekton fame did some v...Mike Pondsmith of Cyberpunk/Mekton fame did some video game design in the 2000s before coming back to tabletop.Slick S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07061439646397481013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-87251925321345879862019-06-07T22:48:30.204+08:002019-06-07T22:48:30.204+08:00It has been so long since I played them. When I ha...It has been so long since I played them. When I have time I will take a quick look on youtube.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-19683739943658934992019-06-07T22:48:07.624+08:002019-06-07T22:48:07.624+08:00Interesting. Yeah, true about 4th edition. It'...Interesting. Yeah, true about 4th edition. It's almost as though in every respect that edition is now treated like it never happened. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-33969029633164895022019-06-07T22:47:33.592+08:002019-06-07T22:47:33.592+08:00Absolutely Bosh - there's an idea for a blog p...Absolutely Bosh - there's an idea for a blog post...!noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-49046556638782774362019-06-07T22:47:08.009+08:002019-06-07T22:47:08.009+08:00I wonder if there's been any movement the othe...I wonder if there's been any movement the other way? Presumably not given the pay disparities which must exist.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-71676165992627557022019-06-07T21:35:51.268+08:002019-06-07T21:35:51.268+08:00Yeah which is why I''ve always gotten more...Yeah which is why I''ve always gotten more of a RPG feeling from TBS games as at their best Paradox etc. games function as a sandbox simulator and allow for a lot more RPing than CRPGs.Boshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06908715118408289864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-35085162111160731042019-06-07T16:31:02.375+08:002019-06-07T16:31:02.375+08:00Yes, I wanted to post this - the Ultima games (and...Yes, I wanted to post this - the Ultima games (and knockoffs like The Magic Candle) were essentially non-linear squarecrawls, and some blobbers (Wizardry VII, the Might and Magic series, and the immense, now barely known Fate: The Gates of Dawn) were comparable in scope and freedom of play. These games had choke points in the sense that completing them required solving key puzzles (Ultima V even had unlockable movement modes which let you explore previously inaccessible parts of the world), but if you just wanted to be an adventurer exploring Britannia, it was possible. JRPGs are a very particular experience, and not really representative of what western CRPGs were attempting. Some of them weren't particularly deep games, but the early 1990s ideal was certainly an immense, fairly open world.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-31584504743725413192019-06-07T15:43:32.240+08:002019-06-07T15:43:32.240+08:00Some of the RuneQuest people went over to work on ...Some of the <i>RuneQuest</i> people went over to work on the Elder Scrolls series, and <i>Call of Cthulhu</i>'s Sandy Petersen joined id Software and helped design <i>Doom</i> and <i>Quake</i>.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-33243377163749374772019-06-07T15:05:47.961+08:002019-06-07T15:05:47.961+08:00On the other side of that: It's really quite s...On the other side of that: It's really quite sad when you see CRPGs try so hard to adapt the mechanics of TTRPGs that they miss the spirit. I feel more like I'm playing a "fantasy adventure" with something like Dragon's Dogma that gives you a lot of freedom in mobility and action than a lot of the tighter, more tactical games, where it's just a TTRPG with less choice and no other players to interact with. Rosenritterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05708668233952612105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-89755108321931645812019-06-07T10:51:52.186+08:002019-06-07T10:51:52.186+08:00If I recall correctly with respect to some of the ...If I recall correctly with respect to some of the Ultimas, they may have had a plot, but it was pretty much a hex crawl to find it.Beorichttps://campaignunderdeconstruction.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-33745900117766735092019-06-07T08:45:06.975+08:002019-06-07T08:45:06.975+08:00It was discussed to death at the time already, but...It was discussed to death at the time already, but the focus on "balance" in post-2E D&D was likely an attitude carried over from MMORPGs where you could be kicked out of a group if you weren't contributing enough.<br /><br />Regarding video games based on D&D specifically, I always though it was funny how every edition of D&D had it's own CRPG adaptation EXCEPT 4th, which would have been the easiest to adapt.Slick S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07061439646397481013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-14759390938571212342019-06-07T05:33:25.655+08:002019-06-07T05:33:25.655+08:00You could also have the influence going the other ...You could also have the influence going the other way. The rise of more explicitly improvisational styles of gaming (both OSR and Storygames) as those are the hardest kinds to turn into CRPGs while some of the players who played in ways that are easier for a computer to simulate got drained away from RPGs to CRPGs. I've certainly played sessions that felt exactly like a bit of CRPG play except much slower and with no graphics and where there wasn't any real value added in terms of having a human GM except for being able to spend time with friends. If all my sessions were like that I'd have quit RPGs and just stuck to CRPGs which wasn't an option when CRPGs were still really primitive.Boshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06908715118408289864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-21112997544636960732019-06-06T23:14:32.084+08:002019-06-06T23:14:32.084+08:00A number of game designers moved from table top RP...A number of game designers moved from table top RPG to CRPG, designing levels and challenges and such for the software folks to code. <br /><br />For example.<br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennell_Jaquays<br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_A._Stackpole<br /><br />So there is probably a massive influence.Ruprechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00139664977453444000noreply@blogger.com