tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post8121760639338328090..comments2024-03-29T06:16:21.012+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: The Historical Context of D&DUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-74151151234381503062012-09-07T21:26:50.379+08:002012-09-07T21:26:50.379+08:00Your post is really good providing good informatio...Your post is really good providing good information.. I liked it and enjoyed reading it. Keep sharing such important posts.Renaissance Exteriorshttp://renaissance-exteriors.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-10049636697929636622012-08-01T02:19:34.503+08:002012-08-01T02:19:34.503+08:00OK, I guess I just don't like "organised ...OK, I guess I just don't like "organised and purposeful" as a synonym for "had religious motives."<br /><br />Interesting side-note: King Manuel of Portugal stated that he was reopening the Crusades when he sent Vasco Da Gama around the Cape of Good Hope into the Indian Ocean - his plan was to team up with Prester John and kick the Turk out of the Holy Land. I haven't made a study of Iberian conquests in the Americas, but I seem to recall those having a lot of religious rhetoric too... I don't know how we'd assess the relative authenticity of religious feeling between Crusaders and Conquistadors, allowing that the two groups might have had different ideas about loot.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-40756429503506962912012-07-31T22:33:41.396+08:002012-07-31T22:33:41.396+08:00Hmmmm, actually I guess JRRT contained multitudes....Hmmmm, actually I guess JRRT contained multitudes... it's quite possible that line about "change comes slowly, if at all" in Jackson's film is a direct quote - I'm so used to dealing with contradictions in this stuff, I should just give up on trying to divine anyone's supposed actual intention.<br /><br />This has been brought to you by a tired Derridean ;9richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-49330048841638888912012-07-31T22:12:28.557+08:002012-07-31T22:12:28.557+08:00OK, James Mishler said much of what I was thinking...OK, James Mishler said much of what I was thinking. LoTR is explicitly set in the war that stands at the cusp between worlds - I find it weird that Tolkien has come to be seen as the epitome of the "unchanging medieval" viewpoint, when he's all about (elegiac) response to change. A lot's already been written about the Shire as a stand-in for Hardyesque 18th century England while the rest of ME seems more 14th century - again, it's historically inspired, not history. The accusation of eternal merrie Englandism is generally poorly founded - as I know you know, those bucolic English yeomen always inhabited a little envelope that knew all about its exterior, the threats from Napoleon and the Navy and enclosure and middle class debt creation and so on. And anyway there's plenty of room in ME for DnD type tomb/cave robbers - like the dwarves that drag Bilbo out of his cozy house.<br /><br />OTOH the "medievalism" of ADnD seems pretty clear to me - it was at least clear enough to my 13 year old self that I disliked it, and went and played C&S for my "authentically" medieval jones and other games for my other yearnings. And (I now see) ADnD was trying to establish a kind of stasis and stability as a product line, so the idea of a dynamic world in transition was probably deliberately suppressed around the time it came out. <br /><br />Now I just find it weird, and weirdly predicated on military technologies, without reference to a lot of what comes along for the ride when you say "medieval" - stuff that has no place in a great deal of the Appendix N material. Sure, lots of authors seem to have liked worlds without guns, but The Dying Earth for instance is always too impatient and time-trotting to bother with solid, cohesive setting detail, Conan is an explicit mashup with deliberately rough joins, and secret master type stories like Battle Circle or Riverworld are defined technologically by what can be found/has been left lying around/wasn't adequately swept under the carpet.<br /><br />A couple of extra ages to add to your list (there are many more, of course):<br />1. 500-1500 outside Europe, particularly in Central Asia and Asia Minor. Eg. 620-750 - rise of the Arab Empire; the Abbasid revolution, rises of the Seljuks, Mongols and Timurids, Mamluks, and (the most DnD setting I know) that curious power vacuum described in the Baburnama where, according to the Conanesque conquering prince author, the plains and mountains of Tartary were awash with adventuring horsemen who held a tenuous claim to nobility and dreams of world conquest. <br />2. The conquistadors are nice, but if anything I prefer the age when it was all privatised - ca 1600-1780. Apart from a few white Rajahs and English Samurai, we tend to think of these conquistadors as middle class Company men, but I call teleological shenanigans: J P Coen or Clive of India are closer, I reckon, to Kipling's <em>Man Who Would Be King</em> than corporate functionaries (and modern corporations are more piratical than legal-democratic too, for that matter). <br />3. Rome (which always had uppity border provinces) and even more, the Med before Rome, whether that's Hellenistic opportunists or Homeric heroes or Atlantean Minoans or Phoenician Travellers.<br /><br />As for guns and deadliness, I guess when I play DnD I yearn to spring those fighters out of their lobster shells, and I get frustrated by the high-level pincushion effect and prefer a deadlier, first level game. I probably like everything about musketing up the old formula.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-29277593599411200992012-07-31T21:48:59.871+08:002012-07-31T21:48:59.871+08:00The crusaders were answering a call from the Pope,...The crusaders were answering a call from the Pope, who in turn was answering a call from the Byzantine Emperor. While there were some pure adventurers among them who set up their own realms, the majority of crusaders went at considerable expense to the Middle East and returned home afterwards; they certainly didn't make a profit and we have to assume they obeyed the call to arms out of genuine religious feeling (and societal pressure).noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-15242287041746970022012-07-31T21:34:26.421+08:002012-07-31T21:34:26.421+08:00In what way were crusader knights more organized o...In what way were crusader knights more organized or purposeful than conquistadors or vikings?<br /><br />...I have a more complete comment to make on historicity, but I'm chewing it over.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-85877945131693086892012-07-28T09:29:21.664+08:002012-07-28T09:29:21.664+08:00The Belgariad was clearly a mis-mash. The Sendari...The Belgariad was clearly a mis-mash. The Sendaria grew up in was very much "generic rennfaire England" and the Tolendrian Empire was clearly late Roman or Byzantine. The Nyssia was classic jungle swords and sorcery. Drasnia was medieval Italian. Algaria was Plains Indians. Only Cherek and Arendia were truly medieval (Viking and High Middle Ages respectively) and as you point out, the Vikings were not the static High Middle Ages. Riva strikes me as "Tolkien British", that idealized and timeless England of the Shire and Lake Town (especially in <i>The Hobbit</i>).Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-42164596882521357322012-07-27T07:43:30.813+08:002012-07-27T07:43:30.813+08:00For some reason adventuring in Greyhawk has always...For some reason adventuring in Greyhawk has always felt more pseudo-classical than pseudo-medieval. I don't know why I imagine it that way, or where I got the notion. There are plenty of medieval trappings, but for me it always feels like a fabled Ancient world.<br /><br />Funny what the brain does.Nathonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12079149554154078887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-52722685067834605462012-07-26T20:50:42.051+08:002012-07-26T20:50:42.051+08:00Intresting (or not-so-intresting, but somewhat rel...Intresting (or not-so-intresting, but somewhat related to the post) fact: in french, "heroic fantasy" is usually translated as "Médieval fantastique" (med-fan).porphyre77https://www.blogger.com/profile/07620350717226228078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-36050171391595531662012-07-26T20:43:33.882+08:002012-07-26T20:43:33.882+08:00I didn' deny the religious element (hence, the...I didn' deny the religious element (hence, the claric class ;-) ). But apart from it, some crusaders like Bohémond of Tarente or Reynald of Châtillon were nothing more than adventurers looking for loot and new domains. Besides, when you read the descriptions that Europeans made of the Eastern countries (like the mythical realm of priest John) you can have the impression that -in their minds- making the trip to Holy land was akin to sailing to some kind of fabulous land.porphyre77https://www.blogger.com/profile/07620350717226228078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-13317914417216860682012-07-26T17:05:06.006+08:002012-07-26T17:05:06.006+08:00I think perhaps you're misunderstanding - it&#...I think perhaps you're misunderstanding - it's not that I want to play a "real adventurer" in a non-fantasy story, it's that I want to have a fantasy game which incorporates some of what we know from the real world.<br /><br />If I was running a renaissance-era D&D it would still have dragons and orcs in!noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-34695127940139202032012-07-26T14:08:50.622+08:002012-07-26T14:08:50.622+08:00Nice! You could even go later: the early 1800'...Nice! You could even go later: the early 1800's in the Caucasus as per Tolstoy's "The Cossacs" and "Hadji Murat".Nadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13379496050656646495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-17898680414703323792012-07-26T03:47:30.535+08:002012-07-26T03:47:30.535+08:00Although I find this article well-inspired, I'...Although I find this article well-inspired, I'm not sure I understood your point, Noisms.<br /><br />You see, from a non-D&D player point of view, your idea looks strange. In fact there is many RPGs based on historical accuracy or a specific background. If I had to be a GM for a group, I would ask them what kind of caracter they want to play before choosing the game. As D&D is for me in the "medieval fantasy" category, I would not recommend it to people who want to roleplay a viking, a conquistador or a colon.<br /><br />And here is a point I think you will agree to : "fantasy" universes can be distinguished from the others, accordingly to the level of supernatural mecanisms they allow. Consequently, nature of D&D impacts the type of adventure it is associated with (encountering a medievalesque bestiary, explore dungeons, fight with and against "tolkien-esque" caracters...).<br /><br />That's why I think you're asking yourself the wrong goal. If your motive is to play a "real adventurer" in a non-fantasy story, you should look for the RPG that best suits you instead of keeping it.<br /><br />That been said, I think you're right about the definition of adventure and to conclude rather for its compatibility with Midle Ages in Europe (a time of slowdown from the end of the Roman Empire until Renaissance, as far as I now). Some people will like to play medieval heroes, I don't.<br /><br />*** This has not been written by a native English speaker.Robin R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06859230490884190379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-1380357796487762332012-07-26T02:11:20.300+08:002012-07-26T02:11:20.300+08:00Yeah: in my game, Eastern Europe is Badass Pagan B...Yeah: in my game, Eastern Europe is Badass Pagan Barbarian Country, of course.lizahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09786809318270279916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-6837257431932432022012-07-25T22:59:12.156+08:002012-07-25T22:59:12.156+08:00Agreed, best late era TSR stuff apart from the Gaz...Agreed, best late era TSR stuff apart from the Gaz series.Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-10914805978662856272012-07-25T21:19:42.054+08:002012-07-25T21:19:42.054+08:00Yes, I think once you get into the age of guns, yo...Yes, I think once you get into the age of guns, you need a different system than D&D. I actually think Cyberpunk 2020 is a good fit for that, if you could incorporate a system for it whereby you get money for XP - to keep the quintessence of D&D.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-28813829411604495592012-07-25T21:17:51.382+08:002012-07-25T21:17:51.382+08:00http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_S...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Siberianoismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-86458113111993223952012-07-25T21:16:47.344+08:002012-07-25T21:16:47.344+08:00It's not that there was no potential for adven...It's not that there was no potential for adventure, just that the particular type of adventure assumed in D&D was probably not a great fit for medieval societies. Most of them actually saw profit and trade as sinful, for example.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-90826101322254106912012-07-25T21:15:22.082+08:002012-07-25T21:15:22.082+08:00That's true actually, I'd forgotten about ...That's true actually, I'd forgotten about those hirelings. <br /><br />The thing about the 1450s is that it is very different depending which part of Europe you were in. In England the Wars of the Roses were just kicking off and it was still very 'medieval' in feel. As too was Eastern Europe - Lithuania and Prussia had only fairly recently been Christianized.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-63111835666633457372012-07-25T16:58:56.265+08:002012-07-25T16:58:56.265+08:00The Roman Empire would make a great setting for RP...The Roman Empire would make a great setting for RPG adventure. <br />It has upward (and downward) social mobility, warfare, intrigue, social unrest, technological innovation, expanding borders and a wide array of cultures. <br /><br />TSR did make a try of the Wild West with 'Boot Hill'. When I was a kid my gaming group gave it a try, having our D&D characters wind up in the American West from the effects of a big miscast spell or something to that effect. With magic greatly reduced and chucking armor away as nearly useless against guns, it was an interesting campaign. We didn't have enough interest to try it pure, but for those with more interest in the period it'd be a good setting. <br /><br />Guns do present a problem for an RPG setting though. Without magic and with guns the settings becomes far more lethal than a typical D&D setting. Maybe with magic armor and potions you can explain-away how a major hero can take 50 orc-arrows and keep swinging, but no one's taking bullets in a mundane world even close to that and walking away from it. But if adding fantasy to it, then sure, any time-setting could work.Laughing Ferrethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649878935225675051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-42866427693546113552012-07-25T14:17:42.643+08:002012-07-25T14:17:42.643+08:00Cossacks. It's all about the cossacks. Like ...Cossacks. It's all about the cossacks. Like Vikings but with sabres and muskets :)<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Repin_Cossacks.jpg<br /><br />"for their part Cossacks were mostly happy to rob everybody more or less equally"Nadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13379496050656646495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-18064876448788295872012-07-25T12:24:15.242+08:002012-07-25T12:24:15.242+08:00Most of the fantasy novels and short stories of Ap...Most of the fantasy novels and short stories of Appendix N take place in a setting that is pseudo-medieval or quasi-Renaissance, on the brink of most if not all the things you mention... whether through nature or through proximity between Law and Chaos. The pseudo-Europe of Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, the era of the High Crusade, the Broken Sword era of vikings; Burrough's Pellucidar, Mars, and Venus settings; Lin Carter's World's End series; de Camp's Lest Darkness Fall was early Dark Ages; Farmer's "World of Tiers" featured conflicting cultures from various eras of Earth's history coming into conflict; Howard's "Conan" stories were set in a mix-mash of eras, though the tech and general politics and economy were really Renaissance/early Modern. Leiber's Nehwon, Moorcock's Young Kingdoms, Tolkien's Middle-earth, all these worlds were at points in their development where these kinds of things were happening... and yet, all were ostensibly "medieval" and "feudal" by nature.<br /><br />One of the problems is this common mis-perception that the "Middle Ages" were ruled by this ossified hierarchical society and culture where "adventurers" couldn't get by. This is hardly the truth, whether from "Dark Ages" of the collapse of the Empire and the Migration era, the Merovingian era through the Carolingian era, to Norman era (ye gods, what adventures those Normans had) and the Crusades and the Reconquista (which as mentioned above, ended only shortly before the Age of Discovery). Anywhere you went, there was always opportunity for adventurers... Sure, you weren't likely to truly conquer France and hold the throne yourself if you were born a peasant, but you could certainly rise to be the power behind the throne. Always in the study of the history of the "Middle Ages," you find the great (and not-so-great) exceptions to the general rules...James Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03510782553325944558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-80125418668764713262012-07-25T07:21:32.091+08:002012-07-25T07:21:32.091+08:00I can't recall where I read it -- probably an ...I can't recall where I read it -- probably an ENWorld of Dragonsfoot Q&A with Gary. But it's evident if you look at his Castle Zagyg stuff, which was very much an early modern setting rather than a medieval setting; it even had wigs as high fashion among the nobility, for example.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-34550688749180002782012-07-25T06:25:20.597+08:002012-07-25T06:25:20.597+08:00I think I'm coming round to the idea that, in ...I think I'm coming round to the idea that, in my D&D-esque fantasy gaming, it is *always* the Black Death, or the arrival of Europeans in the New World, or whatever, and worse(!), thanks to the presence of the fantastical. The world is always in turmoil, and sustained civilization or coherent nation is the (temporary?) exception.<br /><br />I spent a long time thinking about trying to make things realistic, and every time I reflected on the worlds I/we were creating, I realised I'd pushed adventure ever more distant, as civilisations, well, civilise.<br /><br />And that's before we consider the effects on any historically realistic social structures etc. resulting from the implied source of human power (gold won in adventure), monster ecologies, etc. built into D&D mechanics.Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-23581736846378597222012-07-25T06:19:12.252+08:002012-07-25T06:19:12.252+08:00OD&D has a kitchen-sink, vague approach to &qu...OD&D has a kitchen-sink, vague approach to "medievality", but AD&D focused into Late Middle Ages, I think. You just have to look at the equipment tables: plate mail, arquebusses, all those polearms... It's implied the existence of great cities, comerce, far away travel and somewhat advanced navigation. If I remember right, the hirelings examples in the DMG had a strong 15 centuryl feel: Genoese crossbowmen, Venetian stratioti, compagnies d'ordonnance (plated cavalry), Swiss pikemen, etc.<br />Maybe it's only me, but Late Middle-Age is my default conception of D&D, (indeed, my current campaign is located in a fantasy 1450´s Europe).lizahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09786809318270279916noreply@blogger.com