tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post8136026892945479738..comments2024-03-29T06:16:21.012+08:00Comments on Monsters and Manuals: The Hickman Revolution and the Frustrated NovelistUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-67257836744486265702012-12-02T01:44:22.937+08:002012-12-02T01:44:22.937+08:00I found your article most interesting from my pers...I found your article most interesting from my perspective of having lived it. I would be the first to admit that both 'Rahasia' and 'Pharaoh' failed to achieve the fourth stated goal and were relatively clumsy in their approach to the first three. In hindsight, however, that makes sense to me given that this was an area of the craft of game design that had never been attempted and the tools to implement those goals had to be invited as we progressed.<br /><br />Tracy Hickman / trhickman.com<br /><br />You don't need a 'smoking gun'; I'll confess to bringing story and plot into RPGs. <br /><br />One minor clarification should be mentioned, however: I didn't set out to be a novelist. I believed in 1982 that all I would ever be or wanted to be was a game designer. Becoming a novelist was not a destiny that I sought (as was the case with Margaret Weis) but a destiny that found me. Maybe I was a storyteller at heart even then but it was not a career that I pursued. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-63031264073206460652012-04-07T03:35:44.659+08:002012-04-07T03:35:44.659+08:00Ha, well yes, that is a choice example. At that po...Ha, well yes, that is a choice example. At that point it's actually quite hard to argue convincingly that you're still playing a game.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-1451765107060382432012-03-26T01:24:53.347+08:002012-03-26T01:24:53.347+08:00Not that I disagree, I just wonder what the exampl...Not that I disagree, I just wonder what the examples are.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-86658394012777260222012-03-26T01:24:39.319+08:002012-03-26T01:24:39.319+08:00Like what?Like what?noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-55001028427196085182012-03-25T18:23:15.749+08:002012-03-25T18:23:15.749+08:00Although it may be that the TSR version of Pharaoh...Although it may be that the TSR version of Pharaoh I played was a heavily degraded version of the original Daystar release. The Mule Abides blog entry seems to indicate so.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-15394611046643316742012-03-25T17:59:26.688+08:002012-03-25T17:59:26.688+08:00I tend to think those heavily scripted 'games&...I tend to think those heavily scripted 'games' are a much more legitimate art form than is the tabletop RPG railroad. Playing one of those is a lot like watching a movie, with an interactive element. I don't think that's a bad thing. Whereas the tabletop RPG medium is a really inferior one for "telling the DM's story".Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-86136842060382908422012-03-25T17:53:02.210+08:002012-03-25T17:53:02.210+08:00I agree.
BTW re "An attainable and honorable...I agree.<br /><br />BTW re "An attainable and honorable end within one to two sessions playing time" - I found this ironic, since I played through Pharoah with the GM using 3e D&D rules, and it came across as a seemingly-endless zoo dungeon grind, taking maybe 5 sessions! Of course it would have run quicker in 1e. But I likewise ran B7 'Rahasia' using a 3e/BX mash-up that ran quite fast, and I still had to cut out a large chunk of zoo-dungeon-maze at the end because it was grinding on so; it still took 4 sessions. I don't think pacing was his strong suit. <br /><br />AIR the big problem in both Pharoah and Rahasia was that the 'story' was not really 'about' the PCs; they were just a catalyst; it was 'about' (eg) Rahasia the lovely/good/beautiful Elf. At least with Dragonlance the players get to play the central characters!Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-63002397213480870162012-03-25T17:13:53.300+08:002012-03-25T17:13:53.300+08:00Interestingly we have a similar problem in the vid...Interestingly we have a similar problem in the video games industry in that a great many 'game designers' are actually just frustrated screenwriters giving rise to story-driven games with bloated cutscenes. Some still manage to be top notch experiences like Mass Effect but others are little more than simply movies during which the players are given a few minutes to shoot at things or press 'A' to continue.Scarecrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00578596651133889962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-320237445794326172012-03-25T15:40:25.413+08:002012-03-25T15:40:25.413+08:00I remember playing pretty much exclusively in plot...I remember playing pretty much exclusively in plot-driven games for years before Dragonlance came out, but these games weren't railroads as such - sure the DM might have objectives and some sort of ending in mind but getting there relied on player co-operation and skill. I'd trace that way of playing back to Call of Cthulhu at the very latest. And endings, happy or otherwise, are a perfectly reasonable species of victory condition if you're playing for something other than gold/mcguffins. <br /><br /><br />But I know you know this and I don't really intend to call you out on it. I just get a bit frustrated by the view expressed on a lot of OSR blogs that there's a simple opposition between sandbox and railroad. Really there's a broad continuum between them or they're even just landmarks on a gaming landscape. And on the topic of roads not taken, there's a whole field of story structures other than emergent/retrospective (sandbox) and screenwriting 101/Campbellian (the stereotypical railroad) that I think we use in our games but choose not to look at. <br /><br />So what stuck in my craw about DL was the boxes of read-aloud text and the frankly unsafe assumptons regarding what the PCs would do, and those also offended everyone I knew. But I also knew people who wanted to treat DL the way MERP treats LoTR, and to use it as an engine for telling other stories. <br /><br />(and that's just Hickman pt. 2: I jave no beef with the others)richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-30380349118233345172012-03-25T15:13:20.653+08:002012-03-25T15:13:20.653+08:00Well there's a bit of a difference between hav...Well there's a bit of a difference between having "story" in an RPG and having the DM's story. Basically what it comes down to is that D&D rules by themselves don't follow narrative logic, they follow their own logic and if you want them to follow narrative logic you've either got to have a DM imposing it (which in my experience does work well at all, yours may be different) or get another set of rules that have narrative logic baked in at the mechanical level (various Indie/Forge games). Having a story-driven game can be a lot of fun, but I don't think that D&D is a terribly good fit for that play style.Boshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06908715118408289864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-20815192039070662572012-03-25T14:13:09.992+08:002012-03-25T14:13:09.992+08:00I probably read more into the post then what was r...I probably read more into the post then what was really meant (the joys of communicating through a text medium). It is a interesting topic you brought up and you seem like a reasonable fellow. I have just picked up the story based adventuring torch for some reason, lately, which is probably a dangerous thing to do when all I read are old school blogs!Random Wizardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16200875405900408519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-14429013914145453112012-03-25T12:46:52.064+08:002012-03-25T12:46:52.064+08:00Maybe DMs should be encouraged to write stories, t...Maybe DMs should be encouraged to write stories, to 'get it out of their system'. And perhaps they should be forbidden to write stories set in their D&D campaign world.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-13683435575367914992012-03-25T09:03:52.292+08:002012-03-25T09:03:52.292+08:00Growing up DL2: Dragons of Flame was a favourite m...Growing up DL2: Dragons of Flame was a favourite module... I read it again recently. It has *terrible* DMing advice. Absolutely terrible. Wonderfully imaginative characters and setting... but bad <i>game</i> advice.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-52924896019830854672012-03-25T06:29:08.930+08:002012-03-25T06:29:08.930+08:00If there's any derision in my tone it's no...If there's any derision in my tone it's not conscious. Maybe there's a subconscious defensiveness on my part that comes from a gaming lifetime of being told "it's role playing, not roll playing", blah blah blah. <br /><br />Traditional gaming has been derided for so long it now sounds confrontational just to advocate it.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-60596395924748855752012-03-25T06:26:08.961+08:002012-03-25T06:26:08.961+08:00Yeah, I'd agree with that. There's a lot o...Yeah, I'd agree with that. There's a lot of charm in those books. Mostly coming from Tas, Flint and Fizban.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-47286633645152153992012-03-25T06:16:22.220+08:002012-03-25T06:16:22.220+08:00I am in the opposite camp. I have been going aroun...I am in the opposite camp. I have been going around championing the story driven side on this subject. I do respect your view to not like a certain kind of game that is illustrated by the 4 points at the beginning of Pharaoh. But why deride the people who do like playing that way?<br /><br />Growing up in the 80s, I felt like Pharaoh and Ravenloft were great improvements over the older adventures and I still enjoy playing story driven adventures over free form, random table sand box adventures. But I don't begrudge anyone for playing that way.Random Wizardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16200875405900408519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-55625641180884117332012-03-25T05:22:31.535+08:002012-03-25T05:22:31.535+08:00The key to the Chronicles was that they led with h...The key to the Chronicles was that they led with humor, and kept a lighter tone through most of the first book. It's the humor that humanizes the characters, just as it's the humor in old school play that makes players invest in their 18d6.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-83705172291564714722012-03-25T05:01:38.085+08:002012-03-25T05:01:38.085+08:00Yes, the modules did set the tone, I'm sure.
...Yes, the modules did set the tone, I'm sure.<br /><br />It's funny what you say about Dragonlance setting unreasonable standards. Because when you read the Chronicles now, they're really pretty awful stuff. Hickman and Weis didn't really hit their stride as writers until the Legends. They just had lightning in a bottle with the Chronicles, somehow.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2513019539869706574.post-12900378240767597622012-03-25T04:03:50.968+08:002012-03-25T04:03:50.968+08:00An interesting take on TH and I get what you'r...An interesting take on TH and I get what you're saying. It's even more interesting if you've read TH's Xtreme Dungeon Mastery or sat in on one of his XDM seminars. Having done so myself, he comes off as a rather typical, if not overly exuberant OSR DM, one who is committed to entertainment and fun.<br /><br />You know, maybe it's just that the Desert series and Ravenloft are really damned good (imo) and subsequent modules imitated that style to follow suit. I don't know, the Dragonlance series, modules and setting are probably more responsible, especially when you were playing the cast of characters from the novels. Still, that setting and product were VERY popular among some groups of players and those of us who preferred Swords & Sorcery were simply left to scratch our heads. <br /><br />On some level, Dragonlance ruined TSR since the series set unreasonable standards or hopes of what could be achieved via paperback novel sales, consequently leading to overproduction, which crippled the company financially. Next thing ya know, WotC steps in and Tweet, WIlliams and Cook set about "fixing" D&D.T Mullinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03240533108966151902noreply@blogger.com