Friday, 25 July 2025

Lie Back and Think of Rivendell

In Leviathan, Thomas Hobbes raises the important question of elf reproduction avant la lettre when he opines that Adam and Eve could not have been, as it were, shagging until after they had eaten of the forbidden fruit. Before they had lost eternal life, they could not have known sex, 'For if immortals should have generated, as mankind doth now; the earth in a small time, would not have been able to afford them place to stand on.'

Now, there is an important caveat to this point, which is that while Adam and Eve had eternal life, they were in a non-Malthusian metaphysical space - they were not subject to resource constraints. So Hobbes is right with regard to this narrowly bounded scenario. If Adam and Eve were immortal, and simply procreated in the normal way, in the fullness of time there would be more Cains and Ables than atoms in the universe.

Elves, who are actually immortal (at the 'hard' Tolkien level) in terms at least of longevity, are unlike Adam and Eve presumably subject to Malthusian forces. But still, they likely face a less extreme version of this problem. If you live for a very long time, or indeed forever, you can make an awful lot of babies. And this causes headaches for reasons beyond the crying and loss of sleep. Not only would it mean overpopulation. It would also cause severe social problems with regard to the matter of inheritance - imagine the disputes that would arise over wills and probate when Great-great-great-great-great grandpa Finion is killed by a balrog, leaving behind ten thousand heirs.

Elves then presumably have ways of ensuring that they produce very few young. A range of possibilities present themselves, with varying degrees of interest/gameability:

  1. They have sex, but not in a procreative way, if you catch my drift. This may be a productive idea for generating erotic fiction, but is not I think a particularly interesting thing to explore via the medium of D&D (though, as ever, your mileage may vary).
  2. They have sex on rare occasions and this is perhaps timed to coincide with phases of the moon, alignments of planets, particular weather events, passing comets, etc. Totally I think gameable: imagine a campaign setting in which elves only get to have sex once every year at the time the first hurricane makes landfall at Saxinfraxin, and in order to do so every elf in the world has to travel back to a particular spot to find a mate.
  3. For two elves to have sex, they need for ritualistic (or perhaps even spiritual or biological) reasons to be in the possession of a rare type of jewel, flower, metal, and so on. There is naturally huge demand for the material in question and a cottage industry of (human) adventurers and pioneers who go out into the dangerous places of the world to procure it.
  4. Elves practice infanticide and child sacrifice at vast scale. This is dark. But fits nicely with my preferred conceptualisation of elves as inscrutable and unflinching Noldor/fae/Melniboneans/Eldar rather than Dragonlance style qualinesti types. And it would naturally generate interesting possibilities for adventure. (Idea for a Fantasy Novel No. 16,789: Human father of half-elf progency goes to the great elf city to rescue his infant child from sacrifice. Not bad, eh?)
  5. They chiefly have sex with humans, safe in the knowledge that this will produce short-lived (to their eye) half-elf progeny. And they save sex with each other for special occasions. This sounds vaguely like the plot of one of those 'dark fantasy' novels you see on the high shelves in WH Smith - the elf who falls in love with the human he/she thought was there for mere pleasure - but there are more interesting directions to take the idea. What if, for example, having a half-elf child is thought of as a special honour or even of religious significance? And, if this practice is very common and widespread, what kind of cultural expectations, social conventions, and conflicts arise around the presence of so many half-elves in human society? 
You may have your own ideas. 

36 comments:

  1. Some further alternatives:
    1. Elves are dwindling, and have no offspring at all. Every living elf is sterile due to magic gone wrong/pact with gods to allow for immortality etc.
    2. Elves are chiefly homosexual, and the number who are interested in the opposite sex is very small, or they only do it out of obligation solely for procreation.
    3. Elves know that once you have done something enough times you become bored with it.
    4. Due to the fallen state of the world. Elves tragically have a very very high infant mortality rate, so they do have an infinite number of offspring, but like some sea life, they only expect one to live out of a million. I would expect that this would also reduce the desire to sire.
    5. Judging all to be inferior to themselves, Elves distain all physical contact with another being. Half elves are only created as spite children to curse the families to which they are born.

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  2. Elves have a lot of children, but most of them are goblyn, and as such cast away at birth

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    1. And, again, very productive as inspiration for a series of fantasy novels starring the goblin who would take his place as rightfully king of the elves.

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    2. You've basically stumbled across my in world reasoning for using Jareth types as my Goblin Kings. Sometimes a goblin grows out of his awkward phase and into...

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  3. ...why is no one saying the obvious answer for an adventure-ready world?

    The elves (like human cultures that end up with way more offspring than their environment can bear) do their best to get excess offspring killed in a way that ensures that only the most useful survive -- basically, they deliberately encourage external and internal violence by making participation in it a requirement to obtain higher levels of status, maintain current levels of status, or even simply survive against the depridations of other society-members who are attempting to do the first two.

    Why are there elf adventurers? Because every elf is socially expected to adventure if they want to be considered someone worth knowing to, or even be considered an adult.

    Why are the elves having a duel? Ditto.

    Why does this elven warband want to raid the human city, fighting 6 on 1000, or fight the dragon, or travel into the underdark to bring back the head of the drow queen? SAME ANSWER.

    C'mon! It's like you've never even studied aboriginal societies!

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  4. It's not particularly gameable as-is but for context, IIRC according to one manuscript Tolkien's elves *can't* make an awful lot of babies, they shortly run out of juice. The parents are permanently lessened by the act. It almost suggests there's a limited, fixed amount of elvish soul-stuff to go around, like the total value of elf in the universe is a constant and you mustn't spread it too thin.

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    1. Yes, sadly that's the least interesting answer - although it does raise the question: in order for two elves to have a baby, does another elf somewhere have to die? Now there's the plot of a murder mystery novel in the making...

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  5. you ever wonder why elvish men are all so lithe and hairless? they're all eunuchs, barring a small "breeder caste" who are barred from the privilege of castration.

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    1. That has an Eloi and Morlocks feel to it.

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  6. Tolkien's answer for this: Laws and Customs among the Eldar (The History of Middle-earth vol. X. Morgoth's Ring) – or it's variants in The Nature of Middle-earth.

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    1. One day I intend to work my way through those histories. Somebody must have already done a podcast on every single page...

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  7. Elves will only enter a fertile state when the number of elves within a certain (large) territory falls below a particular threshold. This happens so rarely that elves are almost never fertile. A little like female cheetahs being unable to go into heat if there are any other female cheetahs anywhere nearby (hence why breeding them is so difficult). This is also why so many worlds have a fallen elf civilization somewhere in their history. As elves congregated in cities and built civilizations, their population density quickly prevented further growth, locking them into a static state. This made the population vulnerable to a sudden disaster or being outnumbered by aggressive invaders (Orc, Human, etc.)

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    1. That's curious - I didn't know that about cheetahs. I wonder what the evolutionary advantage is/was in that being the case.

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    2. I'm guessing it's about having large enough territories to support the cubs? Since cheetah hunting is so rarely successful as it stands, they probably can't succeed with any competition? I know that females have large territories that overlap with a number of male territories (males have smaller territories and are far more social than females), and that females mate with multiple males. I can't claim any real knowledge on the matter, though.

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  8. Elves are effortlessly pragmatic: The reproductive system is for reproduction. They have sex only when intending to procreate, which is rare. The pleasure is of secondary importance. Elves recognize that mankind is literally insane regarding sex and regarding a great many other things. (C. S. Lewis's Out of the Silent Planet is helpful here.)

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  9. Elves and goblins come from communal eggs, into which a wide variety of ingredients are poured (there is an opening at the top). Some of these ingredients are indeed genetic materials from "parents" but also other things are added. Elves and goblins are the same species, the difference being goblins tend to throw all sorts of crap in the egg soup, like chicken legs and cats and frogs, which is why goblins all have weird mutations, like cat's ears, or pig noses, or bird legs. Elves are just the high born snobs, who pour in mainly elven DNA and rare magical flowers. And where as the goblins will pull a whole lot of goblins from the one egg (with all the goblins "siblings " being able to communicate telepathically, Elves tend to cull the unwanted from the eggs, leaving the most pure expression of elvishness that they can.

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  10. yk, when I was a small child, 3 or 4, I was deeply suicidal for no discernable reason. had an overwhelming sense that killing myself would be a moral good, same as sharing my toys or not telling lies or whatever, my mother had to talk me out of it multiple times. maybe elvish children are the same, basically... just overwhelmingly ready to slit their own throats at any opportunity. maybe dead elvish toddlers are just a common spell component at this point.

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  11. A theological question: is fertility a "less than perfect patch" to mortality? To a perfect, immortal being "fertility" is a useless trait, as this creature is already "all encompassing" (sure, this only works for Immortal, capitalized, as in non-killable in any way, including violence - but hey, were you expecting a theological argument to make any sense?).

    Hence, God neither shags nor gets pregnant, as it is an animal outside the constraints of population genetics. But mortal beings, to go very Tolkien, have 'the Gift of Death', and their ONLY immortality is through their offspring.

    In Eden, only the animals, being lower, reproduced (so that the piggies could give their prokchops to Adam at lunch, like in that episode of The Simpsons). Man's original design, according to this theological weirdness, was perhaps a higher creature, devoid of mortality and less bound to flesh? Thus, Adam only collected stamps for fun, not knowing of sex.

    Being expelled from Eden, part of the 'Punishment' is actually a bittersweet boon, "free will". Maybe fertility could be seen as another example of this kind of "gotch you!" prize: to die, but to be "reborn different". To forgo immutability for change. The immortal collective, instead of the immortal self. Stamps suddenly became boring, and thus Adam grew the First Pube.

    Now, if you go this way, the total number of elves is always constant. As in there are maybe six of them, all annoying, and you have to roll 1 on a 1d100 to be one of such. And even your party companions will probably want to inhume you in cement, as you are prone to stop wathever you are doing (combat included) to celebrate the moment by composing hexameter verse on what was last had for lunch. Perhaps by inventing the hexameter on the spot, on a world that had it not.

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    1. 'Stamps suddenly became boring, and thus Adam grew the First Pube.' Yeah, I remember that moment....

      I like this theme: Tolkien and Lewis were obsessed with it. Has to be because of the Great War.

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  12. It's probably most useful to view elves as members of the Police. Per the original list, in order:

    1. Sting – High Elves. "Seven hours includes movie and dinner."

    2. Andy Summers – Gray Elves. Yuga-style epochs with long rests in between. Last time they dressed colorful (tie-dye elfs). “People want … it, but a lot of them can’t — the stretches are too big.”

    3. Stuart Copeland – Wood Elves. “Once the scalpel came out, the orgy began.”

    4. C.C. Deville – Grugach. Not in the Police. To elves, not elves. Rather, the ritualistic component needed for the W.E. copelandulation above are Grugach babies. Like rodents, if they think their position is insecure, they may eat their own to reabsorb the calories and try later. “Nothing is romantic when you are sober; everything is awkward . . . I am not the same guy who went, “HEY BABY” and put a lampshade on my head or a ***** ** ** *** because I was drunk!”

    5. Henry Pavodani – Dark Elves. There at the beginning but rapidly kicked out of society because believe it or not they were lousy at magic. The spiders came later to teach them. Jokes on you, Eldarim. 1-part Neandersovan, 1-part dark elf = Cain and Abel and their brood overrunning the wildways with pavement and machinery. "I remember not being able to move my body and my head was starting to go round like a washing machine.”

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    1. Ha. There is a great interview with Andy Summers here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V67Fq47U4ng

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    2. See! He won't even look at Beato in the eye. Total Gray Elf. Sorry. GREY Elf. Thanks for the link. I'm struck both by how Summers had feet in two totally distinct musical eras (or 3, I guess if, if one parcels British R&B off from psychedelia), and that their central axes were only a decade or so basically apart. But I guess at this point we're 17 years A.E.G.G., basically the same stretch of time from Zoot Money's Big Roll Band to Synchronicity.

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  13. The Elder Scrolls series answers this by arbitrarily making it so elf women can only conceive a total of four times in their life. This was only relevant because Tiber Septim knocked up the Dunmer queen Barenziah and then forced her to get an abortion to spare him the shame of having a half-elf bastard. I'm sure all the Dagoth-Ur sympathizers love this story in particular.

    I much prefer the idea from Goblin Punch, that elves are actually super-advanced post-humans, for whom reproduction is only possible with advanced technology. "All elves have three parents: their mother, their father, and the hospital." In the fallen age of modern times, finding functional equipment and people with the knowledge to operate it is increasingly difficult. That makes for a neat quest hook. The ultimate treasure in the ruined elven city isn't gold or jewels, but the machines in the maternity ward of the ruined hospital. The bitter, childless elf lord will give you a kingdom if you fetch it for him.

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    1. That is a cool idea and actually accords with the literature on human fertility, which seems to be in rapid decline - it may well be the case that 'mother/father/hospital' (in the form of IVF) is what is needed to keep the human race going.

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  14. I was under the impression that faeries don't have babies, they steal them.

    It's fun to anthropomorphize elves, but not necessary. Just because they are long lived doesn't mean they are fertile for a longer period, or as frequently as humans. Maybe they have a 20-year estrous cycle. Maybe they don't have a libido. Maybe they don't even have dopamine and oxytocin.

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    1. No, I agree - I prefer things not to 'make sense'. Just a fun idea for a blog post!

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  15. Elves are sterile. Their unions don't produce any offspring, son they must abduct human infants and turn them into one of them.

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  16. My take is that the fantasy races don't reproduce like humans do. There are a set number of elven souls and when an elf dies it is reincarnated at the turn of the season. The new elf wakes in some isolated, pristine wilderness with very vague memories and makes their way out of the wilderlands. Dwarves are carved from stone by other dwarves as a sort of masterpiece and most dwarves only have it in them to create one such masterpiece in their lives.

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