Monday, 12 June 2023

On the Thinness of Fantasy Thinking

Regular readers can give themselves a treat and listen to/watch this fascinating discussion of the philosophy of Owen Barfield. You don't need to know anything about Barfield to enjoy it (I didn't, except that he was a member of 'the Inklings' along with CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien) - what you hear will make you very curious.

The conversation's subject, really, is the way in which ancient people thought - and its difference to how modern people not only think but think about thinking. It ranges across all manner of subjects, from the importance of religion and the gods, the 'nature' of nature, the distinction between process-based understandings of human interaction with the world and dualistic/instrumental ones (very McGilchristian one for you McGilchristians among my readership), the bicameral and unicameral mind, and so on. But ultimately I suppose the most fascinating observation of all comes right at the beginning: why is it that, for all that modern people have read and written about the classical philosophers, there is still a sense that we don't quite know what they were driving at, and our understanding of their work seems so thin?

I have often been similarly disappointed with fantasy writers and fantasy role playing games in this regard. It just so happens that I am currently re-reading Julian May's Sage of Pliocene Exile after it came up in conversation on StuPat's blog, and have been very struck by this sense of disappointment during my reading. Don't get me wrong: I think Julian May was a very gifted storyteller and writer, if a little hackneyed in her dialogue and characterisation, but what impresses me about the various alien and early-hominid characters she creates is how thoroughly modern their thoughts and concerns are. In their needs, desires and perceptions of reality they are totally comprehensible and relatable to a contemporary readership - and this just doesn't ring true to the richness of difference that must surely exist between a late 20th/early 21st century reader and a member of a race from a foreign planet or a people from a distant time.

What you could say about Julian May is of course true of 99% or more of fantasy fiction (think of how George RR Martin's characters all behave - like us, but a bit more sociopathic and 'Machiavellian', or think of the internal dialogue of China Mieville's characters and how completely they come across as modern day Londoners even while purpotedly inhabiting Bas-Lag). Nobody ever stops to consider how different the structure of thought itself would be in a world in which magic genuinely exists; in which there are actually supernatural entities walking around; in which there really are many gods with whom one could personally interact. What would it mean to be a human being in those circumstances? How would humans think about themselves and, indeed, about the nature of thinking? How would one interpret one's relationship to the magical and divine?

To give a brief entry point into how big and interesting these questions are, the discussants in the Barfield discussion I linked to earlier on bring up the ancient Greek word pneuma (which apparently has cognates in many other ancient languages), which simultaneously meant both wind, breath, and spirit. To the ancient Greeks, it seems, these concepts were not distinct, but the same, and Plato even describes this concept as being a process wherein what we call the 'wind' is taken into the body in the 'breath' and becomes 'spirit'. What, phenomenologically, would it be like to concieve of things in this way: the act of breathing, and hence living, being part of the same unity as the wind itself? And what would this mean for one's understanding of the world around one?

To give another from my own experience: imagine there is somebody who you vaguely know or have seen around and who you find attractive - not just objectively physically but because there is 'something about them'. You'll know what I mean, I'm sure. How would you describe that feeling? You might say you fancy them, if you're where I'm from, or that they're 'fit'. In Japanese, somebody would, informally, say something rather like ano hito ga nanka ki ni naru, meaning that, with regard to that person, 'something happens to my spirit'. The nuance is totally different, and so, also, I think, the thought itself. It's not just the use of a different word, but the use of a different concept, which says something different about the nature of the relationship between beholder and beheld.

The only fantasy writers who I think come close to capturing something of what I am talking about - going somewhat deeper into the matter of how different the human experience would be in a world not our own - are JRR Tolkien and Gene Wolfe (and it's probably no accident in this regard that Wolfe was such a Tolkien fan). For Tolkien himself it was probably a case of having imbibed so much in the way of medieval texts in various languages that he almost unconsciously developed the capacity to think in a different way; for Gene Wolfe it seems to have been an act simply of great creative genius and imaginative insight. (Think of the scene in the last book of The Book of the New Sun with the storytelling contest, for example, to see this creative power at work.) There may also be a hint of this ability shown in M. John Harrison's Viriconium stories, too: a genuine attempt to think through how people in the very distant future would themselves think. 

But it is vanishingly rare in my experience. And what is rare in fantasy fiction is even rarer in fantasy role playing games (is Pendragon or Ars Magica an exception?). Let's leave aside the question of what it would really feel like to 'be' a dwarf or an elf. What it would really feel like to be a human being in a standard D&D-type world? According to almost everything I've ever read, it would be like being a modern post-enlightenment liberal person but running around in chainmail or a spangly star-covered magician's robe. How would such people think, and how would they regard the world around them and the other living things within it? Well, like a modern post-enlightement liberal person given the incentives thrust upon them by the game system to gather gold and XP.

This is fun, but imaginarily unsatisfying and, to use the word I deployed earlier, thin. I understand why things are that way: it's because sitting around trying to operationalise abstract ideas about the structure of thought is not exactly an exercise that has mass-market appeal. I'm not even arguing it would have appeal for me, most of the time. But it would have appeal some of the time, and I'm interested in the exercise of trying. 

73 comments:

  1. Slightly different genre, but Adrian Tchaikovsky’s sci-fi works are largely about exploring non-human cognition in uplifted animal species.

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  2. Also more in the fantasy realm I think this kind of exploration of other modes of being was central to many of Ursula K Legion’s works across her career, owing in part to her background in anthropology.

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    1. Yes, Ursula Le Guin is a good call. (I love the autocorrect to Ursula K Legion!)

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    2. Came here to mention Ursula Le Guin. I'm glad to see someone already did.

      Every book of her I've read (only a small part of her huge bibliography, to be honest) seems relevant here, but Always Coming Home especially so.

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    3. Seconding (thirding?) the Le Guin recommendation. I especially enjoyed The Left Hand of Darkness - it's a story about gender (among other things) that was way ahead of its time.

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  3. On this score, what do you think of the following books?

    Phantastes by George MacDonald
    Lilith by George MacDonald
    A Voyage to Arcturus by David Lindsay
    Out of the Silent Planet by C. S. Lewis
    Perelandra by C. S. Lewis
    Till We Have Faces by C. S. Lewis

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    1. George MacDonald comes up in the discussion I think. I have to confess I've not read A Voyage to Arcturus. As for CS Lewis - tough one. I know what you are driving at, but actually the best example in his writing is I think the way in which the main character of Out of the Silent Planet and Perelandra is treated in That Hideous Strength, after having had his experience with the divine. The depiction of how that would affect somebody's way of thinking is very interesting.

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    2. Promise yourself to read A Voyage to Arcturus in 2023. It is the most imaginative and most intense work of fantasy I have ever read. But don't take my word for it: C. S. Lewis loved it, and Harold Bloom was obsessed with it (having read it one or two hundred times).

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    3. I'm fortunate to have randomly picked up an old copy of Voyage in a used book shop not having any prior knowledge of it's existence. Very peculiar read.

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  4. While I try to obtain this degree of alien immersion while acting for characters as the GM, I find it generally too much to expect players to engage in the world in the same way. The best method I've found is to employ mechanical and narrative functions like taxation or divination that resemble history to shape their attitudes, and to a lesser extent, historically accurate applications of law (i.e. the justice system or nearest equivalent). This doesn't do anything to blunt a player's inherent post-enlightenment mindset, but it does mean that the world responds appropriately to some absurdities, which is the best I feel that can be hoped for.

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    1. Yes, I think that is usually the best that can be hoped for, though I hold out hope that it might be possible with some group of players who are all on the same page.

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  5. Man, this is a big topic.

    I think part of the problem is that we don't/can't really know how different from ourselves the ancients actually thought. Julian Jaynes has it that ancients didn't actually have the capacity for introspection. (I think his bicameral mind theory has mercifully been put out to pasture.)

    We can safely assume that the hardware of the ancient brain (drugs and nutrition etc notwithstanding) is basically the same as ours. But there's always going to be a gap in our understanding of the ancient firmware/software.

    Would an ancient's familiarity with the Ramayana make them see a troop of monkeys differently? Make them see the natural world differently? I've got into identifying bird calls recently (nerd), and that has already changed the depth/texture of nature for me. From Tolstoy to modern Russians, how differently do (some) Russians appear to think, compared to a "Western" modern?

    I am frequently stuck when reading very old texts by how familiar some of the thinking appears to be, altered as it must be through translation etc. Good footnotes help guide the modern reader through ambiguous readings, but there's a consistency to the human condition that appears to cut through whether the breath leaving a dying warrior's body is their spirit or not.

    I agree that I am frequently frustrated by lazy mental models in fantasy fiction.

    GW's Black Library fiction is an interesting case. Different mental models are baked into the settings (ageless demonic warp creatures, Tolkien space elves, the Mechanicus, the Necrons, gene-crafted Space Marines who "know no fear"). GW writers are rarely up to the challenge, but as a whole there's a clear sense of different mind models with very different perspectives (having a fight).

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    1. While I'm not a huge fan of "world building" for its own sake, I do find that a richly constructed world goes a long way to addressing this question of immersion, both in fiction and in RPGs.

      In particular, in the context of fiction, I have trouble maintaining immersion when the characters sound like 21st-century Americans, or worse, 21st-century Americans at a Renaissance Fair. In this regard, only a few writers do a really good job: Anthony Burgess may take the prize here (A Clockwork Orange, of course, but also his Elizabethan pieces on Shakespeare and Marlowe, Nothing Like The Sun and A Dead Man In Deptford). But I understand that it's a tall order to ask your fantasy novelists to also all be poets.

      As for RPGs: as cmrsalmon says above, it is a big topic, and there are some hard limits on what we can accomplish. The approaches that seem to work best are either to try to leverage an existing body of scholarship/literature on anachronistic worldviews (e.g., Pendragon and Ars Magica), which requires the players to be familiar with this body of literature, or to create your own in-depth world with its own credibly anachronistic worldviews (e.g., Glorantha), which requires players to immerse themselves in the lore of the game world.

      Obviously, both of those are tall orders. Which is why so many RPGs with fantastical elements involve some kind of "through the looking glass" conceit in which the PCs are normal, modern human beings who fall into a fantastical world and need to learn about it alongside the players (e.g, Call of Cthulhu and its various modern horror / urban fantasy offspring). Or else they follow the trend that recent D&D editions seem to: a superficially pseudo-medieval or pseudo-Victorian fantasy/steampunk world built on foundations that precisely mirror the social milieu of its players, making it resemble a cosplay convention or a children's birthday party at Medieval Times.

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    2. Good comments.

      On the subject of old texts seeming familiar, I half agree and half disagree. One of the reasons I now tend to prefer reading old (or foreign, or even better, old and foreign) books to fantasy ones is that in the former you get a more genuinely immersive experience in alien mindsets. I highly recommend, for instance, picking up the Chin Ping Mei or the Tale of Genji or an Icelandic Saga to see what I mean. People's motivations and desires are of course human ones, and these remain the same - human nature is real (spoiler alert). But one gets a flavour of what it would be like to occupy a radically different cultural framework.

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    3. Yes, and I agree. Tale of Genji is the most alien thing I've ever read. I loved it. Japanese culture feels quite alien as a baseline, and Heian court culture is that, turned up to 11(th Century).

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  6. Amazing how many times I've heard Barfield's name mentioned since I first started reading his History In English Words around 6 months ago - I don't think this is just Baader-Meinhof effect, seems to be an upswell of interest in his work. I definitely need to read more.

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  7. Great discussion. I found CJ Cherryh surprisingly good at this mindset representation. "The Discarded Image" by Lewis is obviously very good on this.

    I think for RPGs, you can see attempts to mechanically represent racial mindset in something like Dark Sun, but I think there are two obvious barriers to success here: (1) the ludic purpose most early RPGs had for system races and (2) the difficulty of asking non-actor non-philosopher non-writers to "understand" an alien mindset.

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    1. I need to read more CJ Cherryh. I really liked The Gate of Ivrel.

      Your comment suggests my project *should* be possible with actors, philosophers and/or writers. Hmm....

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    2. For an older example of CJ Cherryh exploring this in a loose series, consider the Chanur books - alien crew ends up getting a single human embedded, although the viewpoint character is always IIRC one of the aliens.

      The current Cherryh series is Foreigner, now up to 21 (!) novels, which is about a human ambassador embedded in an alien culture and struggling to deal with their mode of thinking.

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    3. She is absurdly prolific.

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    4. I came here to mention the first few Foreigner books as decent examples of genuinely alien thinking - though it's all told from the perspective of a human, of course.

      Books in translation are good for getting a slight hint of alien thinking - I still recall reading in the first Witcher book how a murder victim had not been introduced to the murder suspect by a mutual friend. And everyone basically nodded sagely and went "well, yeah, that'll happen."

      This is a perfectly reasonable way to think, especially in premodern times. But it was still very disconcerting.

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    5. I wrote a review of the Chin Ping Mei a few years ago which speaks to this point: https://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.com/2015/12/review-of-chin-ping-mei.html

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  8. I'm not entirely sure about Tolkien here. I mean, the Hobbits, Dwarves and Orcs (and Gollum) are very much 'contemporary' characters. Tolkien's great trick is to move between these early/mid-twentieth-century characters and the 'epic' figures of Aragorn, Theoden, et al. Gandalf acts as a kind of liminal figure who moves between the novelistic and epic modes of The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. And I'm not sure that the 'epic' figures really behave in a terribly alien way - they're a very idealised, Christianised, cleaned-up version of the characters of Norse saga and Germanic epic. In the stuff he didn't actually publish (all the Silmarillion versions), I grant you, there is much more of an authentic epic cast to the characters. For me, Tolkien's genius is uniting the novelistic and epic (which is why LotR is so much more richer than the Silmarillion) and - of course - creating such a resonant, detailed and evocative setting.

    But while Tolkien marries the familiar and homely to the high epic, I' very much agree that Gene Wolfe excels at showing the reader how alien and distant his characters are - not least because the first person makes that so much more achievable, but also because the unreliable narrator is a perfect tool for the job. How many times does Severian fail to dwell on something utterly weird (the literal shoulders of the mountains or whatever), thus slyly drawing our attention to it?

    In RPGs, RuneQuest and the various Tekume games have, over their various iterations, put a lot of effort into getting the players to think in alien ways. That may actually be to RuneQuest's detriment - the lightly sketched version of Glorantha in RQ1 and 2 is much more accessible than the anthropology-heavy tomes of today. And of course, today's version draws quite heavily on Pendragon for that. But it's much harder to get players to think like devotees of imaginary cults than it is to get them to think like very parfait knights!

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    1. Yes, that is Tolkien's great trick. I totally agree. I guess I meant more the Silmarillion, particularly how the key players (the Noldor) behave.

      I would like to try to get players to think like devotees of imaginary cults. (Actually, having said that, in the campaign I currently run the PCs are literally the devotees of an imaginary cult... It doesn't affect their behaviour or the structure of their thought that much, though.)

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    2. The melding of high-low in Tolkien is covered very well in a couple of episodes from the Rest is History crew. First one is here https://pca.st/episode/b269aa53-cf0c-44c6-9d7d-e2430c686b42

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  9. The best novel I've read for truly trying to inhabit and portray different ways of ancient thinking is Goldings, "The Inheritors". Reading that as a boy/young teen set me off on thinking similar tangents to you re the easy familiarity most authors press into portraying other minds from other times.

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    1. Will give it a go. I like those of Golding's books I've read.

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  10. Have you see Malcolm Guite's talks on the Inklings? I can't remember in which of the videos it is, but in one of them he speaks about the breath / spirit and that through the ancients' use of language, they defined the world and their place within it. Very enlightening! See here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTpaMrgTTH-BO7VrRjp1wSDcaWX0kNmd5

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    1. No, but will watch them - thanks for the link.

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  11. Have you read "My Name is Red"? If not, drop everything and read it at once. I think you'd absolutely love it.

    The worst offenders in this area I have ever read are the Ken Follet Pillars of the Earth series. A bunch of college sophomores from 1990 build a cathedral. Really terrible books.

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    1. Thankfully I have avoided Ken Follett. Thanks for the recommendation of My Name is Red!

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    2. To be entirely fair, "a bunch of college sophomores from 1990 build a cathedral" sounds like an excellent topic for a book to me - lots of shoddy carpentry and crisscrossing extension cords, I imagine. The chapters would be divided by 2-page transcriptions of public access TV shows about revolutionary politics

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  12. Reversing your premise, it's in the records of European medieval scribes, students, and monks -- people set free from the wheel of family and drudgery and honour -- that we find the most apparently modern sentiments, playful whimsy, cat memes, party anthems and so on. Now, in this community made possible by religion, add the near-certainty that some of them took a more transcendental or even sceptical approach to religion than their Church's dogma preached, and you have your modern minds. A case, in other words, of neoteny.

    But your wandering wolfheads living off wits and violence, these are sociopathic aliens that most players would shy away from inhabiting completely. When it happens -- and it does, thanks to the well-known "Murderhobo" incentives of certain rule sets -- there is an uneasy double consciousness, as when well-bred young Americans found themselves committing terrible acts in Vietnam. Although Jon Peterson analyzes fantasy gaming as a Vietnam-era reaction against more traditional forms of wargaming culture, I see an eerie resonance between what America found out at My Lai and what, say, Eric Holmes' group was getting up to a few years later in their fantasy worlds.

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    1. Very interesting comment. Of course, you can add to that last paragraph the Zimbardo Simulated Prison experiment.

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    2. I'm reminded of an essay I once read (that I cannot remember the author or title of for the life of me) which described the Spanish conquistadors as real-life murderhoboes. People with no connections to the society around them, rampaging across the land stealing treasure and slaughtering anyone who got in their way.

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  13. I really dig these themes. I'm an historian, and my girlfriend is working for a PH in some themes of ancient Greece, and in the end, the people in the past are so familiar yet so alien. But extrapolating this to RPG's, one of the big problems I know some people face is that a lot of things were morally VERY different, and we have a couple of moral boundaries that are perfect for the real world, but if we don't push them, we can't really begin to think as an alien character in an alien world.

    Themes as heavy and horrible as slavery, that in the modern anglo world is one of the big moral issues, was so normal in all the ancient world. I've played games set in ancient Rome and Greece where the players didn't have a problem with assassinations, killing surrendered enemies and profiteering from war, but slavery was (nearly) always a no-no. 'We can't have slaves! That's *wrong*.' And, of course, I really think that's morally wrong, as well I think that murder is! But for some weird reason there are some themes that are OK in our tables and others that don't. And I think that is the biggest reason. Even in fantasy, a lot of us are too attached to our reality and that 'thins' the fantasy thinking.

    Oh, I talked about the moral wrongs, because it's the more impactful subject, but I also think that ignoring the moral 'goods' of the past (that I don't think that they are good, obviously, but as perceived by our ancestors) and considering them ridiculous and stupid also 'thins' the fantasy thinking by a lot! The idea of lordly love (to love your feudal love) it's very romantic, and possibly very idealized, but in the end if we consider one of the most important themes of the chivalric medieval epic as stupid and if we play a game of Pendragon ignoring and mocking it, we'll never achieve to 'become knights', even if we are only throwing dice and looking at sheets in our kitchen table.

    TL;DR: To 'thin' fantasy thinking is to adapt the fantasy to ourselves, and not ourselves to the fantasy.

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    1. @Nirkhuz, excellent point, and really well put. Newer editions of RPGs are to some degree "woke", and the past isn't "woke". That tension exists in the settings and in the players, as you say.

      There are some aspects integral to historic/fantasy settings that most players would be uncomfortable engaging with at the table. Indeed, many "how to be a good player" guides explicitly forbid players from engaging with many of these aspects, e.g. slavery, xenophobia/racism, rape etc.

      It may be impossible for a modern player to authentically game in some settings, without engaging in arch, performative actions, "I skin the wounded abbot, then castrate and enslave the novices."

      That doesn't seem super fun.

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    2. @Nirkhuz
      I agree with the first post that Nirkhuz did.

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    3. The extreme reaction to/sacralisation of slavery seems to be a recent feature of US culture, I don't recall it from 1980s-1990s game stuff. Excising slavery from existing settings seems to be from only the last few years.

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  14. I keep coming upon Barfield and think it's probably time to read him directly. He comes up a lot in Gary Lachman's books and I recommend Lost Knowledge of the Imagination for a run at this topic.

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  15. I mentioned a while ago that Votan by John James makes a really good job of presenting a historical (late Roman empire) character whose thoughts are not like ours. Edmund wrote a little about it here: https://worldbuildingandwoolgathering.blogspot.com/2018/12/something-for-your-shelves-john-jamess.html

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  16. Unfortunately, the whole concept of "mythological thinking" and such was scientifically disproved almost 100 years ago. By Levi-Stross in 1930s iirc. %)) As for Martin and Mievill - they are simply bad writers despite their popularity among just such youth you are criticizing here. ;)) There were many SF and fantasy authors who tried, with various degrees of success, to depict species and cultures with thinking different from nowdays Western middle-class. I think they are literally numbered in hundreds. Most of New Wave authors did so time and again, for sure. Heinlein did. Caroline Cherryh did several times, as did her friends. Not proper fantasy, but Mary Renault did that very well in The King Must Die. And you can look at many (more serious) historical novels who attempted this throughout all the time the genre existed.
    As for RPGs... there were several attempts, and I personally quite like what they did in Ars Magica. John Wick, for all his shortcomings, attempted this in several of his series. Also, Harn tried something in the same vein (to model medieval life, etc.). One thing I found often used - and probably required - in these cases is to include mechanically such concepts that were important for the culture modeled. Reputation mechanics, generate - and use - characters' families/clans/guilds, have astrology or such has actual effects starting from the characters generation, etc., etc. Unfortunately, most authors are too lazy/themselves motivated only by quick buck/uneducated. Plus, the influence of videogames on the broader hobby shouldn't be underestimated, and it was too difficult to depict many finer details of the world in such for many to bother. It's even difficult with modern computing power. Though look up Mooseman, for example...
    Mike

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    1. Yeah. Wick's Orkworld immediately comes to mind.

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    2. I always bristle when someone claims something was "scientifically disproved" in the social sciences. I google a bit and found this:

      "Levi-Strauss tries to demonstrate a deep structure of likeness between the thought-processes that produce myth in his primitive cultures and the logical..."

      Note the "tries to demonstrate". A theory is a theory, but so often gets disseminated (cited) as fact. This was only an analysis of myth, not a scientific experiment. Working in the physical science is rarely so cut and dry---the social sciences are far worse.

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  17. I'd add Umberto Eco to the list of authors that do a good job of capturing a non-modern way of thinking (at least in the two books of his that I've read, Baudolino and The Name of The Rose).

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  18. Well, one thing is that when I come to Yoon-Suin as a Referee, I try to assume the thinking of my particular version of Yoon-Suin, almost as if the 'narrator' of the game is a Slug-man from Yoon-Suin, now as I referee, I don't take the position of this hypothetical Slug-man, who generally regards humans as lesser beings, but that doesn't stop me from trying to convey the thinking of the hypothetical Slug-man, just as an author doesn't necessarily have to agree with the narrator of their book.
    So far, it has gotten one player trying to act more a Slug-man, though the character is pretty much a insane sorcerer anarchist who became a anarchist from having a reading of Daoist texts that differs from the orthodox slug-man readings of Daoism. (In my Yoon-Suin campaign, the religions of Asia are real, but manifest differently because it is a different world).
    Another player in the group has a character who is a Doc Savage-type Linguist Professor from modern Singapore teleported to Yoon-Suin and their post-enlightenment liberal point of view is constantly getting slammed by the world of Yoon-Suin.
    So I guess what I am saying is that well at least you are conveying this idea in your work.
    I do too feel disappointed in the lack of trying to delve into thinking would be different in a world exotic to our own (though I feel you might be too hard on China Mieville, I feel there is a conveyance in a way of a world, thinking, and history that is different from ours in Bas-Lag). As an armchair anthropologist, I find it one of the terrible shames that fantasy and sci-fi writers don't strive to create exotic, alien ways of thinking and worldviews (in all likelihood, they probably would just create-pseudo different thought-worlds that would be just their own, but still it is one of the greatest untapped potentials for Fantasy/Sci-fi/horror whatever).

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    1. Thanks for that - I hope I did convey some of it! I'm very interested in how e.g. dwarves or elves would really think. How would being immortal affect how one behaves?

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  19. I think fantasy is about 'us' not 'them', so I'm ok with fantasy characters who think more or less like 'us'. Conversely historical fiction feels wrong if the characters are just moderns in historical dress. Serious SF can also benefit a lot from the author thinking about how a different milieu would create different modes of thought.

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    1. Interesting point about historical fiction. I've seen a few folks knocking the recent TV adaptation of Ben Myers' Gallows Pole (which I absolutely loved) based on the fact that the characters in it speak in a modern way. I think that really adds to the programme, in that it emphasises the similarity between ourselves and the people of that age. It also makes it more accessible, though for me that's a lesser aspect. Were folk partakin' in this wondrous creation compelled to utter words in the tongue of yon era, lo, it would serve as both a hindrance, vexing the heart's delight in beholding the piece, and a veiling shroud betwixt us and the denizens of the stage, hiding their innermost ruminations from our yearning souls.

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    2. I think language does strongly influence modes of thinking, so it's misleading to completely modernise the language in an historical work. Reading Cicero or Ovid in Latin they do seem very 'modern', though - much more than writers of a thousand years later.

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    3. Yeah, perhaps unsurprisingly having characters in historical fiction speak in a modern way makes my skin crawl - massive pet hate.

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    4. The worst for me was a book The Crusader purporting to be about a Spanish templar crusader in the Holy Land. It was very obviously just a thinly veiled US Army or Marine in Vietnam, complete with Boot Camp, no religion, and complete ly modern attitudes.

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    5. I'm pretty much the opposite: archaic language is a huge barrier for me. I can cope with it now, in short bursts, but it's taken a lifetime's effort and is still a struggle. It took until my 40s to appreciate Shakespeare, because I found the language impenetrable. That's largely down to poor teaching and lack of exposure, but I don't see why people should be exluded from enjoying historical fiction purely on the basis of their experiences growing up.

      So much historical "realism" seems anyway to be the literary wing of the heritage industry, a fake veneer of authenticity. There is of course a place for historically accurate language, but I don't see why it need be ubiquitous, and the gatekeeping snobbery which often surrounds it makes my own skin crawl.

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    6. I should add that modern language in historical fiction, when done badly, is an abomination. And it is *very often* done badly.

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  20. Not 100% what you're talking about (a group of players embedding themselves in the milieu), but asymmetrical mechanics can do a lot for immersion if you want different mindsets bouncing off each other. cmrsalmon mentioned GW, and my experiences with playing 40k Compendium era certainly felt like alien minds were clashing.

    (Obviosity there is some self-selection going on, but) Orks you got to roll lots of dice! Who knows what would happen. Who cares! Marines were just little organized creeps - if you followed best practice you were going to win. Eldar players had a deep sadness about them (so shiny, so, so expensive and easy to blow up). Imperial guard you were pretty much doomed but that's why you do it, for the futility. Pre-Tyranid Genestealers: R.M. Renfield maniacal cackling as you get them into close combat, "I warned you!"

    I am reminded of a great article in the Duelist many, many years ago depicting a battle royal between card games. MTG won of course, it being the Duelist, but I think that Uno placed second, somehow knocking out INWO and whatever others through the dark powers of Wild Card Draw 4.

    Anyway, my humble suggestion:

    Humans - Your pick of D&D retro clones

    Elves - Vampire the Masquerade

    Dwarves - Something like Pendragon where the progress of time is an important aspect and you just add a bunch of names to your character sheet Biff son of Boff son of Buffalo

    Halflings - Storygame of some sort. The halfling is known to possess an improbability drive where his soul should be which molds reality into a form more of his liking.

    Half-Orc - Rolemaster

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  21. Fascinating article. I would recommend reading the works of KV Johansen, who is also a Tolkien scholar and brilliant fantasy author. I also think the short lived Rome series did a good job of capturing a people who weren’t just us in togas.

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    1. Interesting! Never even heard of Johansen. Thanks.

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  22. I think you would enjoy Richard Garfinkel’s _Celestial Matters_, which is hard SF where the science is Aristotelian.

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  23. Puts me in mind of an article I read a few years ago saying it's tough for us to imagine the differences between now and even fifty years ago, much less a 100, 200 or 1000. Or even differences between here now and over there now. Here in the States, there is a massive difference on many levels between growing up in Chicago and growing up in Southern Alabama. Or the difference between life in the States and life in England. I'm reminded of a commercial in the 1990s featuring Jerry Seinfeld. He's giving a standup routine in England, using American references like baseball and such. The audience stares blankly. He then rushes out and embarks on a whirlwind tour of England, returning to the stage with all the appropriate adjustments (cricket this time, not baseball). And that's the differences in culture, language and thinking here and now. Imagine it back centuries ago. That was the point of the article. As America’s Founding Fathers were coming under harsh condemnation, the author tried to remind us that the world they lived in was a universe apart. If we traveled back in time to those colonial days, we would be as lost as if dropped into central Mongolia today. It wouldn’t be a bunch of modern Americans acting and thinking and talking like modern Americans but in strange wigs. With that, I actually think older movies, as much as they are made fun of today, got the idea that old period pieces should have people acting and speaking differently. Even if it wasn't how people would have acted in the period in history shown in the film, it was nonetheless different than people acted in the age in which the movie was made.

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  24. I think all of the suggestions for other writers to read is missing the point. Deep down, most fantasy isn't about attempting to grapple with the reality of a world where magic actually works and faerie power is just *over there*. The Modern assumes a certain transparency to the world. But, in a world where the normal course of events could be altered *at will* by the right kind of gestures or articulations or even thought patterns, the world is no longer transparent. The authors of works based on this lack of transparency would need to convey that to the reader. Which is going to produce some pretty odd texts. I would recommend Box of Delights by John Masefield for the right 'feel'. Also, the Face in the Frost by John Bellairs. Lastly, I'd recommend 'The Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries' by W. Y. Evans-Wentz for a record of how actual people confronted with the uncanny actually behaved.

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  25. I'm sure this has been mentioned, but for what it is worth both Wolfe and Tolkien were very religious Catholics. In regards to the Ancients, we may not "get" them because we aren't reading them correctly. See "Philosophy Between the Lines"; an argument that they wrote in an esoteric style that we just fail to comprehend.

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  26. In The Witch and The Northman, Robert Eggars does a great job of showing the alien thought processes of people in the past. And then he bends the world to suit that thinking. A good example for DMs.

    And while REH shows what a barbarian might think of "civilization," Conan's dialogue is very contemporary (1930s hard-boiled American) at times.

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  27. I try to make the roleplaying a bit easier on my players by setting my campaigns in worlds that more or less resemble the Early Modern period of real-world history. It's when things like "widespread literacy" and "social mobility" really start to take off, so I find that it makes for a good balance between the alien and the familiar.

    In addition to that, telling a story set in a world where everything is changing at a terrifying speed (the feudalism => capitalism transition, alchemy giving way to what we'd recognize as Real Science, etc.) makes it genuinely plausible that being a wandering sellsword is a viable choice of career. (Consider the Landsknecht.)

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  28. The Mountains of Sunset, the Mountains of Dawn is a short story by Vonda N. McIntyre and is a wonderful example of an alien thought process. Archive.org has it.

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  29. I'm late to the party, but thinking about philosophers with different ways of thinking transitioning between continental and analytic spheres is disorienting in a way perhaps analogous to trying to think like a person in a fantasy realm. Training in both traditions seems like an optimal selection criteria for your hypothetical game.

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