Recently if I have some spare time during lunch at work I have been watching some recordings of Warhammer Total War 3 on YouTube. Don't judge me.
One of the things I have noticed is that there is something which makes some of these recordings much more compelling than others, which I would with some reservations describe as the feeling that there is something at stake in the outcome of the battle.
Now, obviously nothing is at stake in the outcome - it's just a recording of a load of computer sprites brutally murdering each other, whichever way you cut it. But the action is more compelling when it feels as though who wins and loses is in some sense important. If it's, say, Bretonnia or the Dwarfs or the High Elves against, say, an army of Nurgle or Tzeentch, one cares about the result. One feels the same way if it is a, for want of a better term, intra-goodies conflict, like High Elves against Dwarfs (or whatever). One even feels that way, to a slightly lesser degree, if it is an intra-baddies conflict, like Orcs against Dark Elves. But it is hard to summon enthusiasm for a battle between, say, two armies of chaos demons, or between Nurgle and Khorne, or between a chaos army and an undead one, or between two undead ones.
The reason for this I put down to the fact that human beings, while very imaginative and empathetic, are only so up to a point. A battle between computer sprites who represent ordinary flesh and blood has a kind of weightiness to it that a battle between computer sprites who are themselves the stuff of magic or pure 'spirit' does not. The latter has too many layers of inconsequentiality. I can care about imaginary Bretonnians because I can empathise with their situation and become invested in what happens to them. I cannot care about imaginary Demonettes of Slaanesh. Not only are they not real (the Bretonnians are not real, either); they are even unreal within the fiction. A battle between two demonic armies reduces the observer to a neutral spectator rather than one who is rooting for one team or the other.
For much the same reason, it was never possible for me - or, I imagine, you - to care about the Blood War, the great multiplanar conflict supposedly taking place across the AD&D multiverse in general and the Planescape setting specifically. A total war between Chaotic Evil tanar'ri and Lawful Evil baatezu just didn't capture the imagination. It was a bunch of demons fighting each other across an infinite landscape. Again: too many layers of inconsequentiality. Nothing really at stake. I feel the same way about what I have read about the setting of Age of Sigmar, too. Infinite interplanar conflict may as well not be happening at all, because why does victory or defeat actually matter within that context?
This is also why I think in the end it has never been possible (yet - there may be a man who knows how) to make an interesting game set purely in a dream world or a world of illusion - again, a fantasy world on its own can still feel as though it has consequence, but a world of dreams that takes place in the heads of people in a fantasy world feels weightless. Again: nothing is at stake. Reality is at too far a remove.
It follows from this that if one wished to make a game in which the PCs are, say, elementals, or ghosts, or demons, or angels, or what have you, then one ought most likely to relate the action something that feels concrete or real. A game in which the PCs are all ghosts in a ghost world has the feeling of lacking what I will call 'stakiness'. A game in which the PCs are all ghosts and they haunt real world locations populated with real people has a much higher 'stakiness' content.
The funny thing about 'stakiness' though is that you can have too much of it. Our real lives are 100% staky. But where would the fun be in roleplaying that?
So, I guess a couple of thoughts:
ReplyDeleteI mostly agree and get what you mean. The Blood War was never incredibly interesting, though I wonder how much you can chalk that up to the not superb writing of planescape. (I don't mean to bash the planescape writers too much, but the whole twee attitude of "We created the best D&D setting EVAR TM!" that they have makes bashing easy.)
Again, though, I had an old comment on Planescape, which is: it gives you the whole great cosmic cycle, then it asks you, the players, how are YOU going to make your story in his grand dance. Kind of like religion, giving you the grand cosmic drama of good vs. evil or dharma vs. adharma, and it saying, "Okay, God and the Devil exist and they fight. God is going to win, but don't worry about that. Worry about your own story. Will you be able to be on the side of righteousness and make it through? What is your story?"
Back to the Blood War, it's essentially the Order vs. Chaos war that's been going on since Poul Anderson and Michael Moorcock started writing. It's a shame that the Blood War became such a boring version of that conflict.
I remember an idea my players and I cooked up long ago called the 'Blood Debate', which was the version happening in the Higher Planes, where the Angels and Deities of Chaotic Good and Lawful Good get into very heated debates on the best way of how to be good over cups of tea.
Honestly, that joke is much more interesting that whatever happened in the Blood War, though that might be personal bias.
Your thoughts on warhammer sparked remembrance of the cover of the first edition of warhammer fantasy, showing Harry the Hammer, a Chaos warrior I believe, smashing a skeleton with a hammer. Retrospectively, the artwork has been made into the thesis of warhammer, which is it is 'bad guy vs. the bad guy' tabletop playing. I like the idea of seeing just the baddies duke it out instead of having ultra-goodies around battling the baddies. It's fun, to me at least, having Chaos champions fighting the Vampire courts, kind of Dracula vs. Thulsa Doom situation where you can be amorally invested in it, without having to be annoyed with 'whose the good person in the situation?' problem.
Then again, I am talking about 'fleshy', for lack of a better term, baddies, so maybe you're right. Although, perhaps what excites me about Chaos warriors and vampire courts is that often they have bombastic and colourful characters in them and Chaos Deamons don't have that character flavour to them other than 'rarrh, I'm a demon of Insert god here!' Maybe if the Chaos Deamons had more individualized ways of practicing Chaos it might work.
Also the problem might be the Great Game of Chaos is what it is: a game, a game that can never be won. Yes, one chaos god can be in the ascendancy and others can be 'dead', but that god is going to be dethroned and said 'dead' god will be back and revived soon. It's not interesting for an audience seeing four gods play an infinite game of Calvin-ball.
Surprisingly, I have never had trouble with dreamworlds having this problem, just make them as real as the real world though. That's kind of the thing with Lovecraft's the Dreamlands or Lord Dunsany's work, their dreamlands are just as real as the regular world, Lovecraft's is just shaped by the fancies of the waking world (or at least, that's what is said in the Call of Cthulhu rpg) and Lord Dunsany's worlds might be even more real than our regular, 'real' world.
There's also the idea in Trail of Cthulhu's Dreamhounds of Paris where the surrealist artists are in a war of imagination over the dreamlands and who controls the dreamlands thus holds control over what happens in the waking world. Then, of course, there is the horror of the dreamworld bleeding into the real world, like the gugs spilling into the sewers of Paris and rising up to conquer the world of waking.
This has been a long ramble. I was in need of an area to just blort out some opinions. So many opinions here, not a lot of wisdom.
I know what you mean about 'bad guy versus bad guy' and how it liberates you to just enjoy conflict for the sake of it. Warhammer has definitely always traded on that to a certain extent, but the total amorality is a fairly recent thing. Back in the day there was a fairly clear sense that there were goodies and baddies, even if the goodies were never absolutely good. I mean, in a battle between Empire and Chaos, or between Wood Elves and Dark Elves....you know who the goodies and baddies are!
DeleteI think in a way the Moorcockian Law/Order vs Chaos conflict suffers in comparison to Tolkien's Good vs Evil. Tolkien had a sense that there could be absolute victory in that conflict - it was very 'staky'. I never got that sense with Moorcock's work.
I agree with your general point but note that there is a trope in fiction of exactly the sort of stakeless conflict you identify, most common in satire or absurdist/comical stories. I'm struggling to think of specific examples but think Swift, Carrol, even Doctor Seuss. These conflicts are often framed as interminable, senseless, meaningless to the audience and the audience stand-in protagonist.
ReplyDeleteI don't know anything about the D&D "Blood War" but perhaps its intended this way? Not as a conflict the PCs care about, but instead a framing device for intrigues with which the PCs may become involved, or perhaps even manipulate to their benefit. So: the "Orcs vs. Bugbear in the Caves of Chaos" conflict is one we don't care about but can perhaps use to our advantage.
Yes, that's fair enough about stakeless conflict,, although not I think very good material for an RPG.
DeleteI am sure that the Blood War was set up for the reason you suggest. My problem is that even then, whatever involvement the PCs have is going to feel semi-irrelevant. What can they actually do to influence events? And what is the point of even bothering?
Yes, for an RPG the “eternal war” is boring. It’s just background lore at best. The point of having an “orcs vs hobgoblins in the dungeon” conflict is that it’s something the PCs are eminently positioned to affect, otherwise what’s the point. The Blood War is at the entirely opposite end of the spectrum. Not gameable.
DeleteI thought the Blood War was an excuse to have two groups of bad guys who hate each other. PCs don't generally go fight as footsoldiers in a giant war no matter what the stakes, that's boring. But if it's widely known that orcs hate trolls because of ongoing Great War over the last muttonchop, that becomes a "let's make you and him fight" situation for the players.
Delete"an audience seeing four gods play an infinite game of Calvin-ball"
ReplyDeleteYes, I just left a comment trying to evoke the way these "inhuman" / "no-stakes" conflicts are used in fiction to establish a sense of absurdity, but your summary is much better. Perhaps we could simply say that these "no-stakes" conflicts are better viewed not as wars but as "games", i.e., conflicts with no actual stakes. So the Blood War is really just the Blood Game: demons devour devils and devils torment captured demons, by the millions, over and over for eternity. Nobody cares. It's a game.
"A game in which the PCs are all ghosts in a ghost world has the feeling of lacking what I will call 'stakiness'. A game in which the PCs are all ghosts and they haunt real world locations populated with real people has a much higher 'stakiness' content."
ReplyDeleteThese games also have an additional, but related, difficulty: not only are the stakes obscure in a "ghost world", but so is everything else, including the fictional mechanics. White Wolf's 'Wraith' game seemed to stumble on this point: if even the everyday objects and interactions of the PCs hinge on mechanics that differ from those in our own real world (or at least the mechanics of a universally-known, well-defined fictional genre such as "Looney Tunes cartoon" or "superhero comic book" or "James Bond film"), then the game quickly devolves into "mother may I" play (I think that's Forge terminology): the players tend to sink into learned helplessness as the GM delivers a lecture to them about the strange and unexpected physics of the alien world they find themselves inhabiting every time one of them wants to take a perfectly normal action, and delivers a judgment as to whether or not the obscure mechanics allow them to act according to their plans.
Yes, I wanted to say something about Wraith - this is a very good example of both the problem I identified, and yours!
DeleteYep, it is inhumanly difficult to learn the Shadowlands' mechanics (especially if you read it all OOC beforehand). Sure.
DeleteI mean, I've seen the Blood War be "made gameable" through the conceit that "this macguffin might actually help the Demons win the war against the Devils (and the Devils can't use it themselves), go help the Devils destroy it to preserve the balance and keep the Demons contained because once they win against the Devils they're coming for YOU next" ... Devils especially work good as strange-bedfellow allies since they're all about contracts and shit and are *less* likely to backstab you after you've just finished helping them out, right?
ReplyDeletenot sure if this actually amounts to anything though lol