Advancement systems in D&D must always, to my eye, be intrinsic, pseudo-objective and at least quasi-quantifiable. They should in other words relate to events that happen 'in universe' rather than in the context within which play take place (ruling out, for example, XP for 'good role playing'); they should leave as little as possible to subjective judgments by the DM (ruling out, for example, 'story goals'), and there should be some plausible connection between the amount of XP awarded and what it is being awarded for (1 XP per GP; 25 XP per HD of monsters killed; etc.). This is all geared basically towards keeping the DM somewhat honest, and ensuring that the incentives point towards player agency rather than railroads - the result should be that the players want their PCs to go on adventures because of some intrinsic motivation rather than 'because it's the plot'. If the PCs are getting XP for 'story goals', they are by definition wedded to 'the story'. If they get XP for treasure, all they have to do is look for treasure - wherever and however they like.
(I say 'pseudo-objective', because in the end the DM is in charge of setting up the conditions in which play will take place, and it is therefore always inevitably within his gift to determine, for example, how much treasure is actually available in the setting for the PCs to discover, what monsters inhabit the local region, and so on and so forth. And I say 'quasi-quantifiable', because obviously to a certain extent the relationship between the XP value and the underlying token - GP, say, or monster kills - is arbitrary; why should it be 1 XP per GP rather than 1 XP per SP or 5 XP per GP?)
All of this is now known and I know that I am teaching all of you grandmothers out there to suck eggs and preaching basic, primary school level OSR knowledge. But still, it seems important to lay out my bona fides all the same.
XP for gold is therefore in any case the gold standard (see what I did there?) for an advancement system, because it does exactly what it says on the tin - it provides an incentive for the PCs to adventure and it prevents DM arbitrariness. But there are viable alternatives. One would be XP for exploration - based on the number of hexes travelled, or the number of hexes fully explored, or a similar mechanism. Or one could even come up with a method for awarding XP for 'adventure' - giving XP for simply encountering things, or being made subject to particular magical effects, or for descending dungeon levels, and so forth.
The main rival for XP for gold, though, would probably have to be XP for monster kills, since it seems to make intuitive sense: combat is after all often the most enjoyable and immersive aspect of play, and it has an 'in-universe' logic to it in that killing monsters is probably both useful and would also help a person develop his abilities in the crucible of life-and-death confrontation.
When I run D&D I mainly rely on an XP for gold system but I do award XP for monster kills on the basis of the little table found in the Rules Cyclopedia. What this typically means in practice, though, is that XP for monster kills is like a thin sliver of icing on a very fat slice of cake. It is big treasure hauls which see PCs advancing from level to level; the monster kills don't really move the dial. What I don't see emerging, in other words - because the totals are so comparatively small - is a monster kills XP economy.
What I would expect if I increased the XP awards for monster kills (from, say 25 XP or so per HD to 250 XP) and abandoned XP for gold entirely is a radical restructuring of player incentives that I think would play out as follows:
- Players would still be incentivised to go out on adventures but their tolerance for risk would I think increase. Under an XP for gold system, the incentive is to try to amass as much treasure as possible while minimising the risk of monster encounters. An XP for monster kills system would I think reward more risk-taking behaviour: trying to take out the local ancient red dragon despite perhaps not quite being 'ready' for it, because of the big XP haul that would result.
- A genuine monsters kills economy would I think emerge, in the sense that the players would still need to get money from somewhere to fund their lifestyles and buy their necessaries. It seems likely that the selling of monster body parts would become quite an important aspect of what would happen during gaming sessions; it also seems likely that securing payment for bringing in bounties or monster scalps - or even assisting in trophy hunts - would also become part of proceedings.
- Aimless roaming might be encouraged. PCs would actually desire, rather than actively avoid, random encounters. And they may very well decide that simply striking out into the wilderness on long journeys would be a good way of triggering them.
- Killing monsters would become more important than defeating, out-smarting, or avoiding them (without, of course, a tweak to the concept). This would result in a more violent and aggressive approach to the game world - although this might be channelled in an interesting direction if XP was only awarded for killing certain types of monsters (demons or evil undead, say, in a game in which the PCs are all paladins).
Encounters = xp and loot, with a chance for magic items. When I wasa kid in the late 1970s and early 1980s, I remember the anticipation of waiting for DM to roll on the treasure table after we had slaughtered the random encounter.
ReplyDeleteI had forgotten about that feeling of anticipation. Thanks!
Yes, I get a lot of childish enjoyment out of treasure tables.
DeleteI've mainly been running Dungeon Crawl Classics lately, which awards XP for how difficult an encounter was (in actual practice, not from some prima facie challenge rating). So each encounter gives you anywhere from 1 XP (breezed through with no real resources expended) to 4 XP (near TPK). It models a "school of hard knocks" idea of gaining experience. And traps award XP like any other dangerous encounter.
ReplyDeleteSome don't like it because it would seemingly award poor tactics and discourage clever play like avoiding combat through stealth or magic. But in practice, I find that no one is going to intentionally try to get beat up worse than necessary because the risk of just losing the fight entirely is too great. And winning a combat through stealth or magic, and thus conserving resources, is also its own reward. Mainly, I like it because it encourages bold play. You don't get XP by sitting at home; you gain experience as an adventure by going out and doing adventuring things and *learning from your mistakes*.
Interesting. I'd have to have a think about that one. My main concern is that it seems too subjective - leaving it up to the DM to assess difficulty levels.
DeleteWith a "pseudo-objective" x.p. economy, players have a general idea what they're looking for in the game. Hooks become very easy in a game where treasure is the "bait." I'd suspect similar ease with monster only x.p.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I anticipate a couple problems.
The first is that it incentivizes the players to commit murder on regular basis. Violence becomes the first, best solution to solving any and all problems. "Quest givers" are going to be providing targets for assassination. Random acts of violence (and a 'no prisoners' attitude) becomes the norm. I've seen games like this, BTW: it's called adolescent play, with players indulging in violent power fantasies. Which is...mm...okay, I guess? Hard to sustain over the long haul, though.
The second problem is a bit more subtle: it can be difficult for players to gauge risk versus reward, when both risk AND reward are the same thing. It's one thing to say, hey that bunch of trolls or that pack of wandering monsters don't have enough treasure to make it worth the danger...but when the risk is also the reward players tend to tackle threats indiscriminately. Sure, DMs can regulate this by making sure all the monsters are well within the range of the PCs' competence...but that hinders the verisimilitude of the so-called "open world" campaign.
Anyway. Um...that's about all I have to contribute to the discussion.
Yeah, have seen games like that back in the 90's and ever since then. GP = XP can sometimes lead to too much focus on ratbastard thievery, which is generally a lot of fun but not a good fit for all campaign types but it beats the hell out of thuggery focused on racking up a high body count.
DeleteI certainly agree with your first point. If the DM rewards PCs for killing things, the PCs will look for things to kill. As a DM I would make it clear that peasants, town guards and livestock do not yield XP, and there will also be in-game consequences. Having said that there was one notorious game I was involved with way back in high school where it quickly degenerated into a murder-hobo killing spree across some villages that would shock the followers of demon lords. I suspect that was more than about XP, and your comment about violent power fantasies certainly rings true.
DeleteIt's very interesting to me that we don't really talk a great deal about XP as one of the main incentives governing player behaviour. If you change what the PCs get XP for, it will almost definitionally alter the complexion of the game.
DeleteAbsolutely. This is why 2E was such a terrible iteration: it created disparate priorities amongst players, confusing game action.
DeleteTrad games of the 90s that offered x.p. For “role-playing” or “humor” had similar issues.
A lot of tables have had the bulk of XP come from monsters since back in the days of 2e and, like you say, it tends to promote more hack and slash game play and I can't say I'm a fan of it.
ReplyDeleteOf more interest to me are twists on the XP = GP formula. Things like money wasted on frivolity carries over to your NEXT PC but money spent on necessities just gives your current character XP, or XP for fancy being displayed on your person that is lost if said XP is lost, or XP for saving/rescuing people (people as treasure).
I just wish I had a way of making fame/reputation something quantifiable, as I'd love to use such a system.
Typo: "being" should be "bling" as in "fancy bling." Sorry :(
DeleteI've never heard of 'XP for bling' before. It strikes me as more appropriate to systems with lower xp quantities overall and lower level caps, your DCCs and the like. Might lead to situations where character levels fluctuate quickly. Can characters switch bling amongst themselves? Do new levels take effect immediately? Some room for abuse, but interesting possibilities too.
DeleteOf course, in pseudo-medieval society having lots of bling would have been strongly correlated with fame/reputation. (Not all that different to modern society, when you think about it.)
DeleteThe Byzantine: just an idea I had personally while reading all the descriptions of bling in Medieval stories.
DeleteHow it would work is that GP spent on bling (or, perhaps especially, bling you got as a gift from a king) would do more good than GP spent on rations or what have you. The downside is that if you lost that bling you'd lose that XP.
noisms: good point, especially bling that's a gift from a king. That would provide a mechanical reason for, say, an Icelander to bring a polar bear to Denmark (as happens in one Icelandic story): the king would give them a gift in return which would be a big XP boost.
For what it's worth, I award half-xp for temporary nonviolent solutions to monsters, and full for permanent (negotiating a peace, driving out of civilised lands for good).
ReplyDeleteTo me the most effective method of rewarding exploration is tying xp packages to memorable places - things you would tell your grandchildren about, "I've seen the spawning pool of the Lava Caves of Urur, the feasting hall of the Frost Giant Jarl..." And somehow story rewards make more sense if tied to commemorations and rituals the PCs take place in, like the Star Wars medal ceremony - these can also be tied with some elegance to getting access to those special locations.
What qualifies as a 'memorable' place and how much is the XP?
DeleteUp to the GM, I guess. It should be exceptionally large, scenic, or unusual, and have some danger associated with getting there. It naturally flows from the implicit goals of adventure design, to have some jaw-dropping set pieces, combat environments, etc. near the climax of the adventure. In White Plume Mountain it might be the crab steam chamber, the ziggurat, and/or the swinging platform room, for example. Then you key the xp to the difficulty of challenges barring the way there.
DeleteI have a post brewing about this and the Worm Ouroboros, which has a lot of such moments.
DeleteI award XP for interesting landmarks discovered if the PCs share the location with townsfolk. They told everyone about the sandstone quarry for XP but kept the location of a cave system secret rather than earn XP. IIRC, they wanted to build a temple in the cave entrance, but then never followed through.
DeleteThat's a nice idea to encourage trade-offs.
DeleteI’ve had a lot of fun with both XP for treasure and XP for combat.
ReplyDeleteWhen my play group switched from AD&D (friend’s dad DMing) to 3rd edition (us kids DMing), our attitude towards random encounters quickly changed. Rather than avoiding them, the goal was often to find a suitably defensive position and then make a lot of noise to attract them (banging on shields, shouting challenges, etc.). The reason we eventually stopped doing this wasn’t that it wasn’t efficient or due to punishment within the game, but that compared to exploring the dungeon it was pretty boring.
XP for combat does heavily incentivize aggression and risk-taking, but many fun moments came from getting in over our heads and scrambling to get out. The best NPC interactions tended to come from rival adventurers of comparable levels (just dangerous enough to make you think twice about fighting), or characters who weren’t worth much dead — you could technically grind out levels by murdering commoners, but in addition to feeling bad it would be very inefficient.
Because money was less valuable and there were comparatively few things to buy, the DM ended up under a lot of pressure to make treasure intrinsically interesting. Players started keeping trophies, giving gifts to NPCs, and wearing jewelry rather than selling everything by default.
It feels quite gamey. I can remember playing FFVII as a kid and spending hours and hours roaming the wilderness in seach of random encounters to boost XP.
Delete"Or one could even come up with a method for awarding XP for 'adventure' - giving XP for simply encountering things, or being made subject to particular magical effects, or for descending dungeon levels, and so forth."
ReplyDeleteThis is what I did with my mostly-3rd-edition homebrew.
XP were replaced with Encounters, 10 Encounters per level. (At least from 1st to 2nd). DM could adjust for Easy Encounters (1/2) and Hard Encounters (2x).
Anything that would make a good story to impress the villagers in the tavern would be an Encounter. First time the party sees Goblins? ENCOUNTER! Second, third, fourth time? Maybe half-encounter.
Ran from a pack of trolls and (barely) lived to tell the tale? HARD ENCOUNTER.
I'm not against this but it does introduce quite a bit of subjectivity. A lot is left to the DM's discretion.
DeleteYour premise of what a game with only XP for monster kills can be easily verified. Just play some 3E, Pathfinder, 4E, or 5E.
ReplyDeleteGood lord, no! ;)
DeleteRelatively new reader, first time caller,
ReplyDeleteA couple questions:
1. What are your thoughts on tying to other in-game, pseudo-objective things that are campaign specific?
For example, I'm playing with the idea of "XP for Faction Rank", in which a PC gets XP for rising in the ranks of a faction - which are delineated ahead of time. But this is not often or enough to be the only system.
Another is tying to campaign MacGuffins of the larger story arc? "each additional Seal of Power collected" is XP. Again, predetermined not just random loot.
Generically I guess, these are plot driven hooks, which might been seen as a form of railroading the story I have prepped, but I don't think so if they are varied and available enough.
2. More of a logistics question: At my table, modern people schedules to do not lend themselves well to "Gold for XP" and similar without completely nerfing it. Running that "by the book" would end up taking us more than a year of real time play to reach level 3 or so, which no one enjoys. Ironically by trying to offer a more motivating and approachable method of advancement we end up making it boring.
Sure you could just make it 10XP per gold or something, but then we are right back to "why don't you just milestone level and call it a day"
I know what you mean about the logistics - I am a big advocate of playing a weekly game and just sticking to it whatever anyone says. Even if you can only play once a month or whatever, though, you can just increase the size of treasure hoards. I suppose that might be the same thing as making it 10XP per gold piece, but even then I would say the pseudo-objectivity makes it worthwhile.
DeleteI came here to mention the idea of earning XP for taking damage per Alexis from Tao of D&D, then I found this conversation from 15 years ago: https://jrients.blogspot.com/2009/01/tao-of-xp.html
ReplyDelete15 years.... feels like yesterday!
DeleteI stopped giving any XP for killing monsters a long time ago, because it's a such a small part of the total that it didn't seem worth the trouble, and because as you say XP for gold hits a sweet spot of simplicity and unarbitrariness as an incentive. But your post has reminded me it's not either/or. Greed isn't the only in-universe motive that can be mechanised, desire for fame and kudos exists as well, and an incentive for players to achieve impressive victories wouldn't necessarily be unwelcome, particularly when balanced against the sort of highly pragmatic cowardice XP for gold can produce. I'm imagining the sort of situation where the players are earnestly debating whether to kill a dragon in battle for honour and glory's sake (bonus XP) vs. just robbing it blind while it sleeps (most of the XP for less risk).
ReplyDeleteYes - you would need to tweak the XP totals for kills to make that work.
DeleteIn a sense this has already been played out. D&D has been on the monster XP standard since 2e. While having as a source of XP mostly treasure with a dash of monster XP presents the monsters as an obstacle and gives the players free reign on how to get past them, with all sorts of permutations for hidden treasure, speed, subtlety, discretion when using certain spells etc. etc. primarily or exclusively monster XP combined with an open world collapses all that into a blood-splattered arena where the PCs just search out whatever they can reliably handle and obliterate it before moving on. Rinse, repeat. Monster XP works unironically well in a plot based railroad game because there is usually a strong relation between the difficulty of the challenge and the amount of XP.
ReplyDeleteYou could probably re-import a lot of the dynamism if dungeons were littered with extremely obscure, difficult to encounter monsters, put all the powerful monsters in secret areas, conceal rituals or secrets that hide the strongest monsters, offer increased XP for killing monsters in their sleep, without using weapons, without magic or without taking damage etc. etc.
The Beowulf Gambit: "I'll find this thing barehanded and naked!"
DeleteThat sounds like a project for someone.......
DeleteI think that OSR theorists greatly overestimate the impact of XP rewards in shaping player behaviour. In my experience, outside of the OSR sphere most players are motivated by other goals, such as following story beats, actualising their character, or winning discrete tactical encounters. They just don't care *that* much about XP, and whenever I have tried to use novel XP systems (such as GP=XP, carousing, oaths etc) it has not noticeably changed my players' behaviour.
ReplyDeleteThis seems to be borne out in the play culture of 4E and 5E players, where most XP is awarded for killing monsters, yet most players don't optimise their behaviour to maximise XP. At a 5E table, if you suggested that the party should select a dungeon based on its monster population in order to grind levels at an optimal rate, most players would reject this idea as metagamey, and would prefer to pursue their own character goals or the plot laid out for them by the DM.
This is an astute observation. You may well be right.
Delete