I ran 5th edition for the first time today. I'll do an actual play report tomorrow, probably, but thought I'd jot down some comments on the system itself.
The first thing is that, in play, the whole thing is quite simple and actually feels quite a lot like Basic D&D - at least, the way I ran it. It wasn't fiddly or annoying. Put another way, I found that I could just wing quite a lot and it didn't seem to matter. I liked that.
The second thing is that it takes a little while to get your head around the way things work because it uses terms like 'proficiency', 'spell slot' and 'hit dice', which existed previously, in a different way. That was an odd choice, I think, although actually the way skills and proficiency works is fine.
The third thing is that, as expected, the way hit points are abstracted is quite jarring. In the session, one PC was attacked by a dog and lost all but 1 hp. It is hard to think of a dog attack as being anything other than: it savages your leg. Yet because of the way the system works, the character was practically back to full hp after the combat was over because of having an hour's rest. Now, look, I know hit points have always been abstract. I know you shouldn't think of them strictly as being health. But still, "I've been badly savaged by a dog... But I feel a whole lot better thanks to having a nice sit down!" just doesn't feel right to me.
The fourth thing is that, Christ, 5th edition PCs are tough. The three PCs in my game basically made mincemeat of all opposition because of the sheer power and versatility of the new magic system and the (it seems) deliberate attempt to make it easier to get hits in combat at low levels. Not that I'm complaining - it just is radically not the D&D I'm used to, and requires a different understanding of what a starting PC actually is: they're not vagrant wanderers who are just starting out; they're already established heroes.
The fifth thing is really that I'm pleasantly surprised. There are aspects of the system I dislike, and I don't think it would ever be my default, but it's simple, smooth, and easy to blag, and really, what more could you ask for?
This is pretty close to my own experiences, including the conclusion. Modern D&D's never been particularly close to my heart, and I had my reservations when I was first asked to participate in a game. But when I actually got my hands on it and the game started, I was really surprised by how smooth and simple it was, like you said. I don't think there was any confusion or trouble with the rules the whole night, despite the fact that none of us had played it before, including the DM. At the time, after the session, I was quite amazed, honestly.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, 5e's absolutely the best effort WotC has done, to this day. It might not be my default choice either, but I don't think I'd ever be *opposed* to playing or DMing it.
Yep, I'd agree with that, although I think the bar was set very low by the previous two editions.
DeleteMy experience: HP are annoyingly computer gamey- but fixable by house rule.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed 5e well enough the first time or 2 I played it. Advantage was fun (but could easily replace a whole bunch of fother fiddly shiz).
By the time (as a player) I had reached 4/5th level I could no longer be bothered keeping track of my various Feats, Abilities, Extra Spells etc. It was a pain, distracting from my character- torn between tracking all these stupid powers/plusses and thinking in character.
Yeah, I'm yet to see how it looks at higher levels - will update the blog in due course.
DeleteThat is cool that 5E is more like Basic. Uber survivability is not a great idea, if there is no risk then drama is lowered. It is also a pain if you are balancing encounters (not that I go for that). Could you replace the HP system with Basic and otherwise continue?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I think so, although basically everything in the game has much more HP than 'normal'.
DeleteYou could get rid of hit dice and have PCs heal 1-3 hp per day, yes. I think this would tend to favour spellcasters quite heavily, the fireballing wizard over the melee fighter, since monster damage assumes easy hp recovery, and fewer fights before resting let casters go all-out. No edition since Classic or maybe 1e has had a good caster/non-caster balance IMO.
DeleteMy experience with 5e is that player characters are generally topped off and ready to go. Attrition is difficult, as many classes have their abilities restored by a short rest. It is possible to bleed the party out of Hit Dice so that their recovery is stunted, but most classes are still able to perform at near full-tilt every combat.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, bad luck paired with bad preparation or poor play in even a balanced encounter can lead to the death or defeat of a party running at full tilt.
That's a really good point - 5e characters seem tough, but it can turn around quickly, even against what are traditional "cannon fodder" critters like kobolds or goblins.
DeleteAs someone whose favorite edition is B/X, I have to say that I am enjoying 5e as well. Here are some house rules I put in to play to help curb the toughness of the players.
ReplyDelete1) I make them do 3d6 in order for stats (they can swap two but that's it) because they get so many bonuses that their starting scores aren't a big deal.
2) Firing INTO melee is at disadvantage. Furthermore, a nat 1 means you hit your companion/combatant who wasn't your target
3) In order to spend hit dice during a short rest they must expend uses of a healer's kit.
and just in general I find that giving them a bit of a time crunch is important. Make them avoid taking long rests whenever they want because things are happening and they do not have time. I like to press the players and put them in situations where they might want to run, avoid or talk their way out of a fight instead of going through a combat.
5e PCs are hella tough. They just don't go down... until they all go down and the whole party collapses in defeat. But it's really hard to get there. (Especially if there is a druid in the party; killing druids who can shapechange requires a lot of focused firepower.)
ReplyDeleteit is obvious that there is one PC suffering from bad case of torn pants and gnawed boot :D
ReplyDeleteHeh.
DeleteI started with Holmes in 1979 and DMed 1e through the '80s, so I have a little experience with Old School D&D. My fairly limited experience with DMing 5e gave me a decidedly different experience than yours - I was shocked by how easily killed the PCs were. But, I belong to a number of D&D groups on Facebook, and I've seen both assertions: either PCs are too powerful or too "squishy." In that respect, I think it indicates they got it about right, design-wise.
ReplyDelete5e characters are definitely more versatile and more durable that pre-3e characters, but less so than their immediate forbears of 3e and 4e. The DMG does give options for things like healing that make the game decidedly more like Old School D&D. 1e is the edition I still feel very nostalgic for, but I'm coming to feel 5e is getting close to being my favorite for playing.
See below. I always usually roll for hp at 1st level in D&D, so it's perfectly possible for starting PCs to have just 1 or 2 hp. Now that's squishy.
DeleteI don't understand how you could find that 1st level PCs feel like established heroes, when they are so squishy - with around 6-12 hp in most cases, vs monsters that reliably hit and do a similar amount of damage per hit (don't even kobolds attack at +4 for d4+2, with Advantage?) the first level is incredibly dangerous, albeit very shortlived with only 300 XP to level up. Later on PCs do get tougher compared to the monsters, but still vulnerable to superior numbers - IMC the CON 20 Barbarian-13 is a rock, he can take 4-5 times as much damage as the other PCs.
ReplyDeleteDidn't feel that way in play, but to be fair they didn't have any fight with a significant number of enemies. Goro could easily have been killed by the dog, I suppose, but my abiding feeling was that Patrick's shugenja character was able to just carve his way through the enemy like a hot knife through butter at a moment's notice.
DeleteAlso bear in mind in the games I normally run it's perfectly possible for a beginning character to have 1-2 hp.
DeleteYeah, I just played Eleanor the 2 hp Elf in a 6 hour Labyrinth Lord 'death at 0' game - and somehow survived!
ReplyDelete