In the comments on a recent entry, the subject of rules-lite games and level advancement came up. It has always been my position that problems with rules-lite games arise when they become so rules-lite that they lack sufficient 'crunch' to be used in for a long-term, open-ended campaign. A long-term campaign needs advancement to give impetus to proceedings, and this is harder to achieve in direct proportion to how ephemeral the rules feel. The good thing about advancement in D&D, for instance, is that by going up in levels new possibilities are opened by virtue of the fact that the system incorporates many options and add-ons - there are new spells to learn, new magic items to find, new abilities to develop (depending on one's edition of choice). This is harder to achieve with a rules-lite system where all one really gets to do is fiddle around with a very limited number of stats or abilities.
However, I am persuaded, as commenter diessa puts it in the post in question, there is a case to be made that one can - if only one is of a mind to - run a rules-lite campaign in which 'the fiction becomes the system for advancement'. The idea here is that the PCs have goals that are intrinsic to the 'fiction' itself rather than extrinsic ones to do with improving stats, hit points or whatever - solving murders, say, or social advancement, or earning lots of money, or realising some project or objective. And here it wouldn't matter that the rules are 'lite', so to speak, because they would only exist in order to provide a basic framework in which 'the fiction' can evolve.
I can buy this to a certain extent, but I think it misses something important, which is that in order to get to a point at which 'the fiction becomes the system for advancement', there still needs to be part of the campaign that is heavy in the sense of requiring lots of careful thought and probably a great deal of procedural moving parts (but which might be hidden from the players themselves). For instance, I can easily imagine a long-running campaign with a rules-lite system being successful if it chiefly involved investigation - a crime procedural, for instance, or an Unknown Armies or Call of Cthulhu-style paranormal mystery. But I can't really imagine either of those things working without the DM having to invest a lot of time in figuring out ways to systematise the distribution of clues, connections between NPCs, random events, flowcharts dictating what happens if the PCs do X and then Z rather than Y, and so on and so forth; there will still have to be weight, in this sense, but placed behind the scenes rather than being foregrounded in the player-facing rules.
Similarly, I can imagine a long-running campaign with a rules-lite system working if the PCs were, let's say, merchants or traders or businessmen or whatever. But, again, I can't really imagine it working without considerable weight being placed within the commercial or financial aspects of the game - without, say, a way of figuring out what is profitable, in what context, and where.
In short, the argument that I think I am making is that in order for a long-running, open-ended campaign to be a success there is a requirement, even in the context of the rules as such being 'lite', for there to be an aspect of play which is heavy. There has to be something that has sufficient heft to bear the load of sufficient interest and intrigue in order to keep the campaign above water. I am not convinced that it is possible to sustain long-term gaming with mere 'fictional advancement' alone.
This is effectively what's been happening in my House of Worms Empire of the Petal Throne campaign for years now. Mechanically, the game uses an advancement system very similar to OD&D (XP for enemies defeated and treasure recovered), but it also slows the rate at which XP is earned based on the current level of the character. The end result is that, after about 5th level or so, advancement slows to a crawl, almost to the point where it doesn't even happen anymore. After a decade of play, most PCs are at 6th level and will probably never see 7th – but that's OK, because the players are motivated largely by in-game rewards, like social status, etc.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of clear, mechanical advancement followed by stagnation. My sense is many campaigns go that way regardless, so you've just made it more intentional.
DeleteThis is perhaps the least well-theorised and discussed issue in OSR type play. The metriculation from low-level derring-do to mid-level politicking etc and how to handle it.
DeleteThis is how my AD&D and Hyperborea games have gone as well after getting to mid levels. The crunchy stats are nice when they get into the gaudy combats that are available at that level but a lot of the time you don't need all that much. Players do love to level up though and I guess it means more when it happens so rarely.
DeleteI think I agree with this. The constraints and goals as provided by the 'story' don't exist in a vacuum, they're constituted or at least shaped by the rules of the game as well. Doubtless there are some stories and settings that are rules-agnostic but the more meaningful ones display a relationship between the rules and the setting/story.
ReplyDeleteYes, well put.
DeleteThere is a tried and true example of exactly this idea: Traveller. For nearly fifty years, it's supported long-term campaigns with only diegetic "advancement." But also, just as you suggest, despite being very rules-lite overall, it DOES give some weight to 1) spaceship crunch, and 2) finance and trade crunch, the two most important elements of the game.
ReplyDeleteEven Classic Traveller had more than diegetic advancement: it has an experience system which matches the prior career character generation system of ~1 skill/characteristic per term. Nowhere near D&D's experience system, but more than nothing too.
DeleteYes, Traveller was kind of in my mind when I wrote this.
DeleteSince diessa refers to Into the Odd and Cairn 2e, I think you're taking a different reading of "in the fiction" that is meant. I happened to have the (free!) Cairn 2e Warden's Guide pdf open, and pages 124-133 talk about this.
ReplyDeleteOf the 9 wordy examples in the book, only one seems to me to be about the character growing in mundane ways, where they join a faction - the other eight are "because you did this thing in the world, or had this particular interaction with the rules, you get a unique power / rules exception", and even the faction turns into that. The character in the growth examples:
- unwittingly turns themself half-plant
- makes enough high-risk use of a spell that they master it
- blindly accepts blessing from a godling
- indulges in spiritual vampirism
- unwittingly experiments with potion miscibility
- uses the same combat strategy so many times they master it
- succeeds at an extremely unlikely attempt and so masters that narrow skill
- goes on lengthy multi-step attempts to rid themselves of a curse
- joins the faction, gets mundane rewards / interactions / quests; eventually swearing the final oath, they accept a geas for a power
I'd boil down the Cairn 2e philosophy behind this as:
- not just number go up, but increase in breadth / options
- not systematised
And it's that "not systematised" that feels like the barrier for long-term, open-ended play. I'm not keen on Wolves Upon The Coast's boast-for-advancement, but it's player facing and it's clear. If I wanted to replace it with Cairn 2e-style unique advancement, I'd be reading over the entire setting looking for places that I could inject ways to advance *and make those intelligible to the players* versimilitudinously. And during play I'd be mixing my focus on "am I simulating the world correctly (and entertainingly)" with "does this current interaction suggest new opportunities for character growth"?
Cairn 2e doesn't have many numbers to go up, and there are ways to increase some of them, but not necessarily player-controlled, and they're mostly pretty hard-bounded.
Thanks for expanding on this, Tom. The potential lack of structure - without ongoing effort to establish and maintain it - speaks to a challenge facing in-world character growth over the course of many sessions.
DeleteYes, the 'not systematised' thing is the thing, so to speak.
Delete"solving murders, say, or social advancement, or earning lots of money, or realising some project or objective"
ReplyDeleteOne of these things is not like the others.
I understand your skepticism, but I know of such long-term campaigns. That is, they *are* possible, even though I don't do things that way. I think it's a matter of taste, group cohesion, and the usual factors that go into the different flavors of ttrpgs. As you say, "There has to be something that has sufficient heft to bear the load of sufficient interest and intrigue in order to keep the campaign above water." But some people find that something without points, scores, and levels popping up bit by bit. There are players who just make that investment. I believe that even your games have in-fiction advancement alongside the other kind that you're discussing. We just tend not to think of it as advancement. It can be as simple as getting a magic item in the fiction, acquiring a home base, a good reputation, true love, change of faction, or other fictional stuff that's not about character stats per se (along the lines of what James M. said above about his high-level game).
ReplyDeleteYes, fair enough. I believe that. But I also believe it's rare.
DeleteThanks for the extended comment!
ReplyDeleteI think that less crunchy systems don't necessarily mean lighter play. This is something that gets entangled within the "great for a one shot" refrain that even proponents of those products/systems mention. I agree with what you pointed out: *something* will be heavy. What I wonder about is shifting that weight (with the associated thinking/planning/codifying work) away from standard rules of advancement (XP, levels, etc.) toward in-world growth. Completely valid for that to be boring for people, as they might want a pre-defined method of progression (exchanging gold for XP for level/stat-based advancement) to instead get back to what they enjoy, such as delving further into dungeons. The maker of Cairn will occasionally share examples of his group (seems to be a couple of years into a campaign using Cairn?), and it is often about story, problem-solving, exploration, etc. since their characters are generally less powerful after play/advancement; it's more about increasing options, "side-grades," accumulating resources, building contacts, and the like. The burden of that work is why you see folks developing tons of ways to better create that content (e.g., spark tables).
Related to this, I think that any system becomes heavier over time. I don't consider that a flaw of lighter/minimalist systems. Their intent seems to be to streamline making rulings, then allow you to add whatever you'd like. You see that with the second version of Cairn, in which procedures (travel, downtime, etc.) were a focus. It seems to me that it's about what "crunch" you want and where you want it. 4e D&D is combat-oriented, B/X seems to be a balance (combat, procedures, character advancement), and the ItO-inspired stuff leans into the setting itself to drive advancement while minimizing combat mechanics (e.g., roll for damage only). I can see why something like B/X and OSE are preferred by so many, as they're balanced in the approach to mechanics.
I'm caught between openness to an array of approaches to the game and being wishy-washy/jumbled. For me, I think the question is about how the system can facilitate/allow for greater engagement in the world itself. In-world character growth is an example of that. Having a balanced system can also accomplish that with ease, of course. I'm curious about how (if) shifting around the work/weight (of your prep, of how the system functions mechanically) impacts players engaging with the world.
I would basically agree with and endorse your observation that it's about what crunch you want and where you want it. I don't think you can really escape crunch. Even if you think you can, a lot of the crunch still has to happen behind closed doors, so to speak, in respect of DM prep etc.
DeleteI'm hoping to start a Cairn campaign in the new year. This (and the previous comments) is giving me something to think about.
ReplyDeleteInteresting post as always. Isn't there a space for a game in which you get a sort of automatic procedural advancement *precisely because* you don't get rules-based advancement?
ReplyDeleteFor example, if you become wealthy as a result of looting monsters' caves and other derring-do, but you still have your 6 hit points or whatever, you're going to need to take a lot of measures to safeguard your wealth and yourself.
You'll need to hire guards, of course. Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? You'll need trusted lieutenants. And you'll need defences. And scouts or spies too, probably. And to afford all that, you'll need fresh sources of income ...
It's easy to see this escalating quite naturally into a game where 'high-level' adventures are carried out by experienced characters with small armies of henchmen - something that old versions of D&D are admirably well equipped to deliver (that stuff about 1:10 or 1:20 figure ratios in the original Player's Handbook).
And I think that sort of game could ultimately be more interesting than one in which high-level adventurers turn into superheroes (as they do literally in early D&D).
If one did want to add some 'heavy lifting' to that sort of campaign, it might be through rules for physical decline (if you don't engage in the hurly-burly personally any more, are those steely sinews running to fat ...?) and ageing. There's always an ambitious young captain of the palace guard ...
Anyway, Merry Christmas!
Hi, JC. If I didn't know any better, you were advocating clandestinely for RuneQuest or some other old Chaosium games (or even Chivalry & Sorcery). I know that you know that what you are suggesting in your comment here was, already in the late '70s, one of the major solutions to the superhero problem (for those who found it a problem), but I thought I'd add this note so that readers might realize that these solutions have been tried, and to the satisfaction of many, who played that way for many years. Happy new year!
DeleteI meant to add that the model for this sort of campaign would be Kafka's The Burrow!
DeleteThe only thing to add is that 'a game where "high-level" adventures are carried out by experienced characters with small armies of henchmen' sounds like it would have to be pretty crunchy!
DeleteI’ve mused of an idea for an OSR hack called “Hireling” where you play level 0 hirelings (using the AD&D list of hireling class options, I guess) who have to manipulate your high-level NPC bosses to survive. - Jason Bradley Thompson
DeleteYes, exactly. Take for an example a recent well-documented campaign in Empire of the Petal Throne at Grognardia. EPT is rules-light - but it also has a quite heavily detailed setting! The exploration of that socium (which was penned by real-life specialist in such) can hold interest for years.
ReplyDeleteMerry Crisis and Happy New Fear!
Mike