Monday 11 December 2023

Warhammer is not and has never been funny

This may be old news to some (a lot) of you, but I recently learned of a minor kerfuffle that took place at the end of 2021 on online spaces concerning themselves with Games Workshop-related news. A long and really, to be frank, rather histrionic essay by Tim Colwill gives all the details, but, in brief, somewhere in Spain a bloke turned up in Nazi regalia to a Warhammer 40k event and - things get a bit hazy here - the organisers of the event concluded that 'Spanish law' would not allow him to be ejected, so he was able to stay.

I find it hard to believe that this interpretation of 'Spanish law' is correct (I very much doubt it supports the position that 'because I am wearing political symbols I can't lawfully be refused entry to a private event'), but be that as it may, the whole thing worried vocal segments of the fan base, and in the end somebody at Games Workshop's PR department thought it important to issue a statement to the effect that it did not condone the behaviour of this individual (although it stated this only obliquely).

It is often the case when a company issues a statement of this kind that it tends to just draw attention to the issue while raising fresh ones, and so it was here, because whoever wrote the statement very unwisely chose to deploy the term 'satire':

The Imperium of Man stands as a cautionary tale of what could happen should the very worst of Humanity’s lust for power and extreme, unyielding xenophobia set in. Like so many aspects of Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium of Man is satirical. 
For clarity: satire is the use of humour, irony, or exaggeration, displaying people’s vices or a system’s flaws for scorn, derision, and ridicule. Something doesn’t have to be wacky or laugh-out-loud funny to be satire. The derision is in the setting’s amplification of a tyrannical, genocidal regime, turned up to 11. The Imperium is not an aspirational state, outside of the in-universe perspectives of those who are slaves to its systems. It’s a monstrous civilisation, and its monstrousness is plain for all to see. 
That said, certain real-world hate groups – and adherents of historical ideologies better left in the past – sometimes seek to claim intellectual properties for their own enjoyment, and to co-opt them for their own agendas.

The idea here is I suppose fairly simple: don't look at us, guv, we're just holding up the Imperium of Man to ridicule ourselves, and if real-world hate groups take the wrong end of the stick, we're hardly to blame. And in one sense, of course, the spirit of the statement is impeccably correct. A company isn't to blame for the views of the people who buy its products. To claim otherwise is sheer madness, and I've never been able to understand why it is that nerds so readily fall prey to this line of thinking. As well as being into elf games, I'm also very into whisky and other fine spirits. I've often wondered quite why it is the case that, say, single malt enthusiasts don't give a monkey's whether somewhere in the world an actual honest-to-goodness Nazi is also drinking 15 year old Springbank, whereas D&D and Warhammer enthusiasts do seem to care deeply about such issues in their respective domains. But I've never been able to arrive at a satisfactory answer to that question - except perhaps to muse that bookish nerds tend not to actually understand human beings all that well on balance.

In any case, though, it was a stupid statement to make. And it was stupid for two reasons. 

The first is readily apparent: it just isn't true. Neither Warhammer nor Warhammer 40k has ever been satirical, unless by 'satire' one means the crushingly unfunny sub-Goon Show chaff that peppered early Games Workshop materials, of this kind of ilk:



To call that an attempt at humour is to err catastrophically on the side of charity; to call it 'satire' is to abuse the English language to the point of incomprehensibility (as would be the other standout examples, most of which revolve around 'hilarious' orc/ork names and speech). So whoever wrote the statement was onto a loser from the very beginning. 

But the statement was stupid for a much more important reason, which is that it undermines the very thing that makes Warhammer and Warhammer 40k interesting in the first place: their essentially tragic view of the universe (or, at least, the universes which they depict). If there is a message behind Games Workshop's two main settings - and here I am referring of course to pre-Age of Sigmar Warhammer - it is that mankind's battle against Chaos is at the same time sisyphian (one can never win), corrupting (one will be turned into the very thing against which one fights), and yet necessary (because the alternative is worse). The war against Chaos must be fought, always and everywhere, even in recognition that it will cost almost everything that one holds dear and one will be transformed in the process into something truly gruesome. One will end up sacrificing one's values, losing all regard for the good things that one hoped to protect, and descending into brutality and even savagery. And one will, even while recognising this, choose to do it all the same - because Chaos simply must not be permitted to win. And in a strange way the nobility of the struggle, indeed, can be said to derive precisely from the fact that it involves such great sacrifice, even at the level of values themselves - from the fact that to defeat great evil one knowingly damns oneself to evil in turn, and must face the consequences in eternity. 

To dismiss this as a mere assertion that 'Everything is bad', as Tim Colwill does, is a bit like dismissing King Lear, Othello or Oedipus Rex as 'Everything is bad'. The point of tragedy, and the reason why it has always been associated so closely with catharsis, is precisely that everything is bad - but that life is still worth living anyway. The great works of the literature of humanity, West and East, North and South, have always grappled with this fact, which might be considered the very crux of the human condition. And in their own small way, the Warhammer Old World and Warhammer 40k can be considered as contributions to that same, cross-civilizational interest in one of the fundamental features of our species and its existence in the universe. Life is hard, full of pain, corruption and suffering, but the act of living is good. Games Workshop should be proud about that fact that their ultimately daft fantasy setting speaks to this great truth, rather than being dismissive of it, and it certainly should not be retreating behind the cowardly artifice of it all being 'satire'. 

51 comments:

  1. The not liking Nazi in gaming thing is a shared space problem. You can't stop a neo-Nazi from buying the same kind of whiskey as you and drinking it. But when Nazis come to shared gaming spaces letting them be there is oftentimes viewed/is tacit approval. Which in turn brings more Nazis.

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    1. That's why I always assume that everyone in a given space tacitly approves of the politics of everyone else present, no matter how extreme.

      I know doing so magically creates more Nazis, but I'm careful to also share spaces with leftists, to maintain the cosmic balance.

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    2. The same issue crops up in any shared space, you have this problem with bars, music venues and other hobbyist groups like the SCA. If you don't kick out neo-nazis/racists when they first appear, you're in for a bad time when more show up and it reflects poorly on the group to the public at large.

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    3. While I like cmrsalmon's answer to your comment, the truth is that the water is being muddied, here, by this Spain case.

      The essay I linked to is not really about somebody showing up at a 'shared space' (although it does begin with that vignette). It is literally somebody expressing frustration at having to enjoy the same hobby as people who hold objectionable opinions. Not being in the same location - merely liking the same thing.

      And I frequently encounter the same issue in RPG nerd-dom. Not 'I don't want to have to share a space with a racist' (perfectly legitimate), but 'I don't want racists to like the thing I like, and it must be stopped' (insane).

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    4. Allowing people to dress like Nazi's at your venue seems a lot like tacit approval for Nazis. T
      As for what people like, you cant control other people so why worry.
      There's a difference between people having opinions (political, on anything, whatever) and openly wearing insignia in a place

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    5. Yes, and that's why I've tried to make clear that I have no problem with anybody asking somebody to leave a venue if they are making others uncomfortable.

      The essay linked to in the entry seems to elide that with simply sharing 'the hobby' as such, which is crazy talk.

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  2. This is one of those debates that pops up on-off fairly regularly and becomes a quagmire damn quickly. (Having seen the dramatic and immediate partisan divide over the Thraka question - an explicitly fictional and not terribly important issue with many of the main creators still alive - makes one despair of human unity in more vital matters.)
    Anyway, points I don't see raised in such cases.

    1) There's a confusion of 'Humour referencing current thing or common reference point' and satire. The 'Black Planet of Birmingham' isn't satire, so much as it is a jibe at a region in the West Midlands. (A satirical treatment of it would presumably involve comically greedy industrialists, which I don't see mentioned on Lexicanum.)

    2) There's a form of political speech that is nearly indistinguishable from grousing about the weather. Sometimes 'It's a crying shame, the Government should do something about this!' is the equivalent of 'Gee whiz, the Taxman sure do take a bite, don't he?' By the same token, one can insert rote, small talk-like political speech into a game.

    3) The above points should not obscure points where early Warhammer did do something that melded both satire and point 1) -style humour - as in 1986's McDeath.
    [https://awesomeliesblog.wordpress.com/2020/05/30/the-wfrp-story-xxxi-mcdeath/]
    [https://realmofzhu.blogspot.com/2013/09/mcdeath-and-miners-strike-1984-85.html]

    4) The example given in 3) is scarcely a common one. I don't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of such things, but I think one would struggle to find one after 1995.

    5) I would contend that 40k can be laughable, especially in its earlier incarnations. See the over-the-top blood-thirstiness and grotesqueness of the Orks, with vehicles named things like 'Spleenrippa' and 'Lungbursta'. It is difficult to believe that such things were proposed to be taken seriously.
    See also some of the early Space Marine Chapter names: Flesh Tearers, Blood Drinkers, Space Sharks, Terror Tigers, Grief Bringers. I have wondered if these were intended as a caricature of 'Death from Above!' style OTT military braggadocio, but I'm not sure that intention has ever been confirmed anywhere.
    Colwill's piece references an interview with Rick Priestly, making clear his vision of a mixture of high and low styles was at least sometimes intended to make sure the reader wasn't taking it too seriously.

    6) There are, and continue to be, plenty of cooks in the kitchen at GW. It's difficult to speak in terms of one vision, even for one edition of 40k. Cf. 2000 AD, as Colwill above: Judge Dredd has had a variety of writers and tones, and is often but by no means purely satirical, whereas Nemesis the Warlock has always been written by Pat Mills, and aligned nicely with his political and cultural stances.
    And, of course, this universe is skewed around the need to created a tabletop game with vaguely balanced factions.

    7) Accepting 5), one should also note that the such laughable elements have reduced over time.

    Anyway, that's likely enough for now.

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    1. Is 'laughable' the right word here? I can't ever remember seeing a word like 'Lungbursta' and laughing. Even smiling. To be honest even when I was 11 years old I would have preferred something a bit less OTT.

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    2. Maybe laughable isn't quite right. But it is ridiculous - clownish, in its way - and enables a style of play that is laughable or clownish. The obvious contrast between 'The Sentinel Walkers of the 172nd Ruritanian Fusiliers will advance through the area of scrubland to the north' and 'I'm gonna send in my Spleenrippas to get ya'.
      It doesn't have to appeal to everyone (I'm not so keen on the whole Ork thing myself) but I think that is part of the purpose of names like those.

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    3. "Tragic" is a correct categorization of 40K most of the time, but when tragedy tips over into bathos, it risks becoming farce. I think that's the word you guys are looking for. For a lot of 40K stuff, I'd say Titus Andronicus is more on the money than King Lear. And TA definitely walks the line between tragedy and farce.

      And since we're talking theatre, and farce: George F. Walker has a couple of great plays with characters whose fantasies venture into 40K territory. The line, "I am the soldier of the total shit future!" from Walker's _Better Living_ always conjured up visions of Space Marines to me. It's a vision so self-serious it tips over into silliness. Hence the go-fasta dakka-dakka orks and so on.

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    4. Interesting point - a lot of renaissance tragedy is like that (The Spanish Tragedy being an obvious one that springs to mind - in which more or less the entire cast dies.)

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  3. Thing is fascists like satire of themselves anyway, as long as its presenting what they think of as proper fascism. Putting a black space marine on the cover of a horus heresy novel does more to irritate them than saying "See

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    1. But why is it the goal to 'irritate' people? I don't understand that mentality. Art should be created on the basis of it being art, not on the basis that it will irritate somebody one doesn't like.

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    2. Because culture war dictate that anything MUST belong to a side and only one side and people who are 'bad' cannot enjoy the thing that side has claimed.

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    3. @noisms Depends on the art you're trying to make. Pissing off people you don't like is definitely up there as a valid motivator.

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    4. "Pissing off people you don't like is definitely up there as a valid motivator." Its only valid when its the type of art that one deems permitted. And if its not, then that's 'hateful' or 'degenerate'. The same people going 'haha lets make art to own da chuds' are unironically the same people who would feel offended, nay, metaphysically insulted at things like the Stonetoss comics. But I already know what answers people will bring up, how 'one is promoting violence against a minority' or blablabla. The same wishy washy shit that boil down to 'its okay when my side does it'.

      Because we assign a higher or lower perceived moral standing to arbitrary group of people what is and isn't allowed to be controversial art changes. One can make the most crass, sex laden, drug loving nonsense and pass it off as rock and roll punk rebellion but don't dare, say, any Christian (or any religious group) make fun of these people in turn as people of low moral standards. Because again say it with me: its only okay when I agree with it.

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  4. "And in their own small way, the Warhammer Old World and Warhammer 40k can be considered as contributions to that same, cross-civilizational interest in one of the fundamental features of our species and its existence in the universe. Life is hard, full of pain, corruption and suffering, but the act of living is good."
    OK but I still think Warhammer started going downhill on the day they took away the noise marines' electric guitars.

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  5. Oh, I think there's some satire in (early) 40K. But I grok the tragedy part as well which (I think) is well-stated in this post.

    RE "Nazis in nerd spaces:"

    I think I'm just disheartened that there are (still) Nazis at all, especially those with the gall to go uniformed in any space...game cons, whisky bars, whatever. If there were Nazis at the grocery store, there'd probably be complaints....and my grocer would probably kick them out, too. Sucks for the Nazis, I suppose. But they're responsible for their own negative press.

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    1. To be honest I doubt this is a huge issue anywhere, and for what it's worth I sincerely doubt that the person at this Spanish event was actually a Nazi - he was probably doing the whole thing for effect. Classic attention-seeking behaviour. That should be grounds enough to expel somebody from an event, though.

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    2. Exactly this. Only the most delusion passenger on the antifa shortbus would, upon seeing someone dressed as a Nazi, assume they were an actual Nazi.

      Isn't it far, far, far more likely that it's always just some idiot doing an extremely ill-advised bit? Even most alt-right clowns fall into this cosplay category.

      I'm not saying hardcore, violent racists don't exist. (I'm saying they can't afford to play Warhammer.)

      Also, having just read that Colwill article, yikes. You've done a solid job of explicating its nonsense.

      I think Warhammer is indeed mostly tragedy, but with a frequent, strong lean into bathos, as another commenter suggests. I disagree that it isn't satire though.

      Yes, the original "satire" was always weak, and has long-since been rinsed out of the settings, but: the depiction of the Imperial Guard feels like straightforward sub-Heller satire of military inefficiency, the Administratum is a straightforward sub-Kafka satire of maddening, pointless bureaucracy, and the Ecclesiarchy is a straighforward satire of both faith and organised religion.

      None of these satires are particularly good (with maybe a couple of exceptions over the years), but I'm not sure there's a better word to describe them.

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  6. In defense of humour in tragedy, humour's a big part of why life is still worth living - recently watched two shows about British ships lost in the cold and unforgiving North: The North Water and The Terror. The Terror is the much better show, for reasons including that The North Water was relentlessly miserable in a way that undermined its tragedy, while The Terror was able to accentuate its darkness with lightness - while also avoiding its humour being a wink and nudge to the audience that would weaken their ability to take it seriously.

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  7. My understanding of WH40K lore is that the Chaos of the Warp is empowered by the psychic emanations of human misery; the Imperium literally creates the thing it hates. So it's not just a 'tragic necessity' universe.

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    1. That's interesting - to be honest I'd never come across that aspect of the lore before (I've lost track of all things Games Workshop since the late 90s).

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  8. I wrote about this at the time. Funny to see it bubble up again. https://save.vs.totalpartykill.ca/microblog/satire-without-purpose-will-wander-in-dark-places/ (Anonymous comment because Google won’t let me log in!)

    I do agree worrying about other people’s hobbies is a fools game. My wife doesn’t care who else is into knitting, and I suspect it also has its share of Trump loving contrarian old ladies. But I also think, as noted above, it’s not quite the situation, because you will end up at gaming clubs and events and other situations where you do actually need to give a shit about who is participating alongside you. Otherwise next thing you know your gaming store is the shitty one full of garbage people.

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    1. I suppose what I struggle to understand is the 'next thing you know' bit. It seems to posit that 'being a Nazi' is like an infectious illness or zombie plague. Whether or not people will have opinions you agree, or disagree, with is totally outside of your control to begin with, but in any case I just don't understand the postulated mechanism whereby, because somebody somewhere with objectionable opinions turns up at a gaming event, all of a sudden this means that the same type of person will somehow mysteriously proliferate as a consequence. It's not like Invasion of the Body Snatchers!

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    2. Maybe the issue is more on the order of: this visible display of Nazi sympathy is worrying. Is there a larger problem that has been bubbling up under the surface and has now metastaticized to the point that people are unafraid to walk among others in the group openly espousing these views? Like...did that proliferation happen under our noses and without our notice?

      And some folks might run with that thought and think there is a need for proactive housecleaning.

      Not saying that's a correct way to handle such an issue. Just trying to describe from where it might come.

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    3. Maybe Nazis is the extreme case, but in the case that prompted the GW response, an actual neo-nazi showed up. (If I saw someone dressed up as a Nazi I would get out of the way, so your comment earlier about how it’s probably just dress up ignores whatever impact playing dress up may have. How am I supposed to know if someone is just trolling versus going to hurt me?)

      Because this event didn’t turn this person away, I assume the net result is people that don’t want to play with dudes dressed up like Nazis will stay away next time, and people who love that will show up. You certainly would see a shift in demographics.

      A less extreme case and more common case would be boys-club gaming spaces where women aren’t welcome because people are loutish, sexist, whatever. I don’t think it’s any individuals jobs to fix all spaces. Racist sexist people can play warhammer I don’t really care. But I’m also not going to go out of my way to play warhammer with them if I can help it, and would push back (or leave) if the places I was playing because racist, sexist, whatever.

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    4. @KenHR, I think the hypothetical person in that scenario is guilty of some faulty reasoning, though. For a long time, dressing up as a Nazi was merely "edgy" (c.f. Prince Harry) and played for laughs. I suspect most people wouldn't have even given it a second thought. Given that context, even though the rules have changed, it's a leap to assume the fool dressed as a Nazi in 2023 is "a visible display of Nazi sympathy" as opposed to merely stupid.

      Certain kinds of racism and anti-semitism defo "appear" to be more widespread, but how much of that is just a matter of where the media chooses to shine its spotlight?

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    5. Having now seen a photo of this Spanish guy, it's clearly not a case of dressing up as a Nazi. It's wearing clothes with Nazi iconography. Given the context, IMO that is *still* a case of stupid/edgy is far more likely.

      If I walked into a bar filled with guys wearing these hoodies, though, eeesh. Maybe they are Nazis.

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    6. "it's a leap to assume the fool dressed as a Nazi in 2023 is 'a visible display of Nazi sympathy' as opposed to merely stupid."
      I mean there's no way a stupid person dressed as a Nazi could possibly be dangerous, right? What a leap.

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    7. The discussion is getting sidetracked here. I made clear in the post itself and in the comments that I think the organisers would have been well within their rights to ask this person to leave, and I would have no problem with any organisers of any event asking anybody to leave who was making other people uncomfortable.

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    8. @john, stupid is dangerous, whatever team it thinks it's on. I'm not defending this clown's right to wear offensive clothing, and 100% agree he should have been kicked out.

      @noisms, that totally fair. Apologies for the sidetracking.

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    9. I apologise too, noisms. To answer your Invasion of the Body Snatchers question, I think I grok the concern even if it's not always correctly applied. In /online communication/, it's common for people with outspoken and violent opinions to proliferate if not moderated against, particularly the racist froth. I think that's only natural and to be expected. Is it as sensible a concern for the people paying to attend a specific event in a specific town? No, but I think I can see how someone could reach that conclusion.

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    10. Yes, I suppose I can see that - a feature of being extremely online.

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  9. early 40k had more of a halo jones/dredd/heavy metal/incal vibe with a fundamental notion that the imperium was bad, has deviated from the emperors path and forclosed on future by trapping his soul in the rotten body. if there was tragedy it was bcs humanity has chosen fear over hope and not about 'we have to do exterminatus bcs there is no other way'. it was punkish and absurdly over the top and not about overmen making a choice between a virus bomb and cyclonic torpedo.

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  10. In my experience, the body snatchers effect is real. I am into psychotherapy in part because a guy in my gaming group was into it; I am into running in part because I met a guy at Gen Con who was into it. Could the Orc Stomp 5K have been my gateway to Naziism instead of marathons? I don't think so, because how the effect works isn't just that someone is demonstrating that as a gamer you can also be X. The real power is that participating in a community with that person lets you see for yourself how X is working out for them. I wanted to be like Jesse in my group who was comfortable in his skin, and like Tony at Gen Con whose body now required much less skin. The idea that having the right beliefs makes one superior is easier to sell online, where the screen conceals the actual life of the ideologue.

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    1. Who's Tony at Gen Con whose body requires much less skin?

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    2. 'The real power is that participating in a community with that person lets you see for yourself how X is working out for them.' Yes.

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    3. Tony Digaetano organized the Orc Stomp running event I did in 2013. The fact that the vast majority of convention-goers were not persuaded to take up running suggests that the body snatching effect is not large, even with official Gen Con sponsorship and wide social acceptance of the thing being pushed. I would have been persuaded by Tony just showing up at the convention in a costume, though, because he had clearly shed a lot of weight. His physical presence was an effective advertisement that the ideas he was promoting would help me go where I wanted to go. Ideas that make one angry, crazy, and unpleasant to be around will tend not to propagate through community transmission.

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  11. Does Gorkamorka count as Warhammer? Its the same universe and does seem the intent was dark humor. Most Orc related content was intended to be dark humor. Also White Dwarf had a drunk Giant staggering table that would be impossible to be seen as serious. Granted these might be edge cases but early on at least there was some humor.

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    1. I loved Gorkamorka - really fun game to play. It was often my experience that the more experimental offshoots (Gorkamorka, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Kill Team, etc.) were more enjoyable than the main 40k and Warhammer battle games.

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  12. The thing with Warhammer 40k as 'anti-fascist satire' is that it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny of how the setting has been presented and is STILL being presented by Games Workshop.

    From the get go of 1st edition (Rogue Trader) it is made clear that, while the Imperium is a pretty shitty fucking place born of a bad fever dream of '80s scifi and 2000 AD comics that they are still very much the viewpoint/protagonist faction and from that initial point to even today, the Imperium remain the viewpoint faction for humanity. If it really was this biting anti-fascist satire people claim to be, then its really fucking bad at it. And why you ask? Because if it was this satire, then everything the Imperium consider bad (the mutant, the heretic, the alien) would not be that bad and it would just be Imperial propaganda. If it was this anti-fascist piece, then the main human faction would be some sort of resistance ala Star Wars rebels and the Imperium would still play a massive role, sure, but as the main human bad guys.

    Instead every xeno except the Tau are batshit insane, evil and/or self serving pricks. Psykers/witches ARE real and not just superstition but legit dangerous as the warp can overtake them. Mutants are touched by chaos and the only alien species that mixes with human create deformed alien hybrids whose only purpose is to cause revolution to weaken planets so space bugs can eat them. There is a 'thought of the Day' in 40k that says: "The rewar for tolerance is treachery." If 40k was satire, then this statement would not be 100% factually true in universe.

    If its supposed to be this clever anti fascist satire, then its really fucking bad at it.

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    1. Agreed. It's just a foolish argument to begin with.

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    2. Games Workshop is stuck in a bad (self inflicted) place right now where the societal zeitgeist is purity to intensely far left sentiment and anything that is deemed 'fash' is bad as its considered a risk of inviting people considered to be Nazis r Fascists, a very devalued term nowadays. The problem is that GW made its entire fortune from jerking off the Imperium and Space Marines. Now they're going "No wait guys the Imperium is bad and fascists!" while sitting on a gigantic pile of money made from selling models and novels glorifying the Imperium as tragic heroes.

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    3. It draws a lot from Pat Mills' Nemesis the Warlock and ABC Warriors anti-fascist satires in 2000 AD but it isn't anti fascist satire, agreed. It started off satirical but part of the satire is the fascists may be right, and what would that look like. That shades easily into straight up Fascism.

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    4. I'm basically of a mind that jerking off the Imperium and Space Marines is much more interesting than 'anti-fascist satire', to be honest. Trying to do good despite the fact that doing good costs great sacrifice and is also in its own way corrupting is a far more interesting story, and a far more interesting fictional universe, than 'fascism is bad'.

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    5. I always saw post-Rogue Trader 40k (since RT is its own thing when they were finding their own style and what they wanted from the setting) to be an interesting setting because it pushes the absolute limits of how far you can go into edgy territory and yet somehow still make it seemingly make some amount of sense. The Imperium's (and even other factions like Eldars) position is that "all other alternative are worse". Its a universe so insanely nightmarish that the best people can manage is a decaying totalitarian mess and a seemingly losing battle against cosmic scale corruption.

      In ANY OTHER universe, the Imperium would be entirely in the wrong but what made 40k unique imo is that it (accidentally?) asked the question and dared to bring up the fact there ISN'T a better option, at least not anymore. Maybe if Humanity hadn't lost so much of its technology and culture from the Age of Strife there would be room for it to be better, more open, more intellectually open. But Humanity and every other faction (except maybe Chaos, Orks and Nids) were all dealt a shitty hand by fate and pre existing conditions. They have to make do with what they have. Because its an absolute hellhole of a universe.

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  13. " I've never been able to understand why it is that nerds so readily fall prey to this line of thinking"
    Actually, it's quite simple: people do prefer for their hobbies to have a meaning. ;) It's actually even quite close to the main point of your post iiuc...
    Mike

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