First things first, the whole fighting-woman cliche (you know the one - ripped, nubile young female, leanly muscular, hyper-sexualised, probably bisexual, and yet of course uber-sexy) has totally passed me by. It's one of those fantasy/sci-fi tropes that I just Do Not Get. (Like elves. And vulcans.) Now don't get me wrong - I yield to no man in my liking of nubile young women. In fact, in my liking of women full stop. But I'm old fashioned enough to like my women to be women, thankyouverymuch, not simulacra of men. The idea that such female characters somehow strike a blow against sexism is utterly laughable to me, given that they do exactly what feminism was supposed to fight against (see women as objects - in this case sex objects).
At this point I expect some snarky reader somewhere is thinking "I bet he's just so insecure in his own masculinity that he feels challenged by such female characters." To that I can only say: Damn straight. I don't like my masculinity being threatened, especially not by women. Having it threatened by other men is bad enough! Why any man would fantasize about a woman stronger, fitter and faster than them is utterly beyond me. And at the same time, why any woman would want a man who was weaker, less fit and slower than them is also completely mind-boggling to me in the same way that, say, foot-fetishism is. Well, I never pretended this post was going to be objective!
But be that as it may, and like it or not, some people like to play tough-girl women in games. To this I say, great, go for it, if that's what you want to do, but let's be realistic about it. Tough-girl women are NOT likely to look like this:
She ain't hurting anybody. No, tough-girl women in the real world mostly look like this:
And I would argue that if were are interested in striking blows against sexism, we should be depicting more East German shot putter-type women both in our play and in our art. Because doing so would send out the clear and simple message that we all (claim) to believe in: It doesn't matter what a woman looks like. Which is the opposite message to what role playing games mostly send out today.
Wait wait wait...
ReplyDeleteYou don't get Vulcans?
...
What?
Vulcans are so boring! I like Spock. But the rest of the time they're just like Lord of the Rings elves, without the killing with swords.
ReplyDeleteI hate all that "we're the most powerful and wise race in the universe...but we use our power only for great good, because we're so wise..." Give me a Klingon or a Romulan any day.
I endorse this position. I see a place for the ridiculously idealized S&S woman the same as the ridiculously idealized S&S man -- barbarians subsisting in the wilderness don't look like Arnold Scharzenegger, either. And it's a fantasy game, so what the hell.
ReplyDeleteBut I use the Uber-Babe as an outlier, and find it a little tired when all female characters are Hot, Deadly, and Described In Creepy Detail (some combination of "creamy supple skin" and "she has a 10 Charisma because she's so cold and aloof").
My Uber Babes are usually either supernatural beings or mortals with a (very) rare combination of physical attributes, experience, and Charisma. Most mundane warriors just don't have time for excessive calorie consumption, carb restriction, auxiliary resistance training, and cream-based depilation.
So the freaky Demi-Goddess may look like a Frazetta cover, but the garden variety Amazon probably doesn't. Hard to fire a bow when it looks like you've been hit in the back with a pair of cruise missiles.
Oh, and I trained Brazilian jiu-jitsu a few years back with one of the best female grapplers in the world. Not a Frazetta cover model.
ReplyDeleteI have some killer female characters, but my favorite is a thief-acrobat named Leggus, she isn't strong and always avoids one-on-one combat. She was one of my very first PCs, I took her from 1st to 14th level before she died. . . or I guess UNdied. She was Neutral Evil, but a sever hatred of vampires that borderlined an obsession. She would go out of her way to see them destroyed, her arch enemy she met when she was 1st level, however the DM didn't know this yet. I wanted to retire her, she had taken over her guild, and accomplished all of the goals that I had set for her, except for the slaying of the first Vampire she encountered. I had lied to a bunch of other players, promising them great riches if they help me break into this undead lords castle, oh there was much money to be had, but all of it was cursed, and I knew it. Finally I get this thing cornered and . . . well, I failed my save vs. his gaze. I never did find out the details, as far as I know she is now what she loathed, which is fitting considering her alignment.
ReplyDeleteI decided her sex based on her stats, her STR was low, but the WIS, DEX, & CHA was high. I later found a magic item which helped me build up some strength, but that was just to help her with her acrobatics. Essentially she was a cat-burglar and intensely fun to play.
From my own experience, I always hated when a DM decided to tell us how our characters looked, this should always be the domain of the player. Yes, things happen, some monsters can leave scars, some magic is disfiguring, some diseases ravage the flesh, but that is in the game. If I want to play an Amazon warrior in a chainmail bikini, or in the flavor of Red Sonja, then by god I should be allowed to do it. It isn't a reality game, it's a Role-playing game, and I prefer to play characters that are nothing like me . . . well, when and if I ever get to play.
Scott: I had to laugh at this line - "she has a 10 Charisma because she's so cold and aloof". How many times have I heard variations on that?!
ReplyDeleteRipper X: From my own experience, I always hated when a DM decided to tell us how our characters looked, this should always be the domain of the player.
I agree with that. I just wish players would make less cliche characters sometimes! ;)
Whoa, wait a second. I never knew that D&D or any RPG's were trying to make any strikes against sexism to begin with. It's fantasy, it's role playing, the world doesn't exist. For a girl, it's like playing dress up and being somebody else for awhile. Somebody whose nothing like her, or is exactly like her. I've playing MANY female warriors, and some of them were hugely muscular, like my character Valandria (she had 18/00 Strength) for instance. She was dressed appropriately for her character. No bikinis, but in my imagining of her, I saw something close to say like China from WWE. Not entirely cut, but pretty good sized girl. She was a bit intimidating to look at. But I've had other warrior females that I've played that because their dexterity scores were high, were slighter built and more athletic like a runner's body.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the sexuality thing, I don't care if you're talking about real life or a fantasy game, women have ALWAYS used their sexuality and the art of seduction to get what they want. That's not a new thing, it's just natural. So taking that into consideration, what would be so wrong in a female warrior, who likes being female btw, in dressing scantily? In a way it could be viewed as a strategy to her fighting. Dress sexy and hope they get distracted.
I don't care what woman you're talking about, at some point and time she has used the fact that she is a woman or what she looks like to get what she wants. I'm a very self sufficient kind of girl. I can take care of myself thank you very much. I know perfectly well how to be a lady, and how to just hang with the boys and drink beer. I'm not a girly girl, and don't need a man to do things for me. One of my favorite things to tell a guy when he's running his mouth is,"You're just jealous that I'm more man than you're ever going to be, and more woman than you're ever going to get." Have I ever batted my eyelashes and pouted to get what I want? You bet your sweet ass I have. So the females I play can run the gambit of totally girly girl femmie characters or really butch females. Just depends on the mood I'm in. I even used to have a priestess of Thor that I used to play. Her weapon was a war hammer. She wasn't typical weakling priestess by any means. The character I'm playing now in Rip's campaign is a Victorian whore that was born a medium. She's kind of a tough girl simply because she grew up in the White Chapel district dirt poor and has been a hooker since roughly 14. But at the same time she's also very vulnerable, and every bit a woman.
Now to the bit about the art, sex sells. Would you buy a piece of fantasy art where the females all looked like East German body builders with armpit hair four foot long? I know I wouldn't and neither would a publisher. If you want to be completely realistic about it, a female character PERIOD would have hairy legs, hairy armpits, maybe even facial hair depending on her age or race, deep lines in their faces from sun exposure, too many scars to count, hair that feels like straw, and quite honestly probably even smells like the South end of a North bound mule. Not very appealing is it? Who would want to play something like that? I wouldn't. That's the point of a fantasy game, playing dress up and being someone else, remember? Ok, here's a point, most of the geek boys I know that play look NOTHING like the characters they play. I know a lot of geek boys that are super tall, skinny, and pasty white. No game at all. Then their characters in game play are these tough guy warrior types. So why can't the girls be sexy if they want to?
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
A relevant pic, via Jeff's Gameblog
ReplyDelete@Noisms: Well I guess I am a fetishist then, because the lady athlete on that B&W pic seems mighty fine to me. :)
ReplyDeleteThen again, I'm a short, thin, weak and unfit guy. If the mates I must choose have to share all these traits, but to greater degree (to avoid any challenge to my masculinity), I'd have to settle with a crippled midget or something.
@Tala: That is a very long rant to say pretty much nothing. Have fun with your Xena-clones. ;)
@Edsan: If you think it said nothing, then you obviously didn't read it and only skimmed through it. Try slowing down and actually reading it and you might get it.
ReplyDeleteGood luck with the midget wrestling ;P
Another quick point that I just remembered, what about the female warriors of Morrighan. When her warriors went into battle, which were women, they went in butt naked and covered in blood screaming their heads off. It was noted in many tales that deal with them that it was a frightening sight to see these insane women running into battle. They carried a shield and a sword and nothing else. No bikinis or armor, just their rage and bloodlust. Where would they fit in a campaign setting?
ReplyDeleteScrew it all. I just want to know where the Lilith picture is from.
ReplyDeletenoisms: But isn't that just because we only ever really see Spock (or his father Sarek) in any detail? I agree with you that other Vulcans sing a bit boring by comparison, but I don't think that's enough to dicard the Vulcans completely...
ReplyDelete@ Alexis:
ReplyDeleteActually of the two I'd take the shotputter! Achtung baby!
I just know when Lilith turns around she'll blink giant anime eyes at me and talk like a voice-over artist.
Hell Max, we can both share! :)
ReplyDeleteThe fraulein certainly seems to be more than capable of handling two eager men.
@Tala: You are mistaken in your assumption. I read you rant twice before posting. And I did get it, it's a rant about pretty much nothing. :)
Oh, and midgets are people to! Xena-clones, on the other hand, are not.
Tala: Thanks for the long comment. It seems we're talking across purposes though. Let me break it down a little bit into the main points you make.
ReplyDelete1. Whoa, wait a second. I never knew that D&D or any RPG's were trying to make any strikes against sexism to begin with.
You're absolutely right. D&D isn't trying to make strikes against sexism and nor should it. But it's often argued that portraying women as major butt-kickers is a strike against sexism, by certain parts of fantasy fandom. I was just pointing out that if people really cared about sexism, they wouldn't insist that all such female characters look like Angelina Jolie.
2. As far as the sexuality thing, I don't care if you're talking about real life or a fantasy game, women have ALWAYS used their sexuality and the art of seduction to get what they want. That's not a new thing, it's just natural. So taking that into consideration, what would be so wrong in a female warrior, who likes being female btw, in dressing scantily? In a way it could be viewed as a strategy to her fighting. Dress sexy and hope they get distracted.
Well, I wasn't born yesterday! But I don't think the idea of women using their sexuality fits with fighting at all. Women have much more powerful weapons than swords when it comes to dealing with men. I don't need to point out what they are... But I don't buy the idea that this would just lead to women warriors not wearing armour. Not wearing armour = death in medieval warfare. I think it would lead, rather, to women manipulating men into doing their fighting for them. Which has a lot more historical precedent than sexy women warriors.
3. That's the point of a fantasy game, playing dress up and being someone else, remember?
Sure, but please note, I never said there was anything wrong with playing a sexy female character. Just that if you're going to play a female character who can crack heads, let's not pretend she'll look like Jessica Alba.
4. Ok, here's a point, most of the geek boys I know that play look NOTHING like the characters they play. I know a lot of geek boys that are super tall, skinny, and pasty white. No game at all. Then their characters in game play are these tough guy warrior types. So why can't the girls be sexy if they want to?
I think you're misunderstanding me. My argument is this: Those geeky guys play tough guy warrior types and that's fine. Women can play tough-girl warrior types and that's fine too. But again, let's not pretend they'll mostly look like Jessica Alba. Likewise, women (or men) can play sexy women and that's fine too, but let's not pretend they'll be the cracking-heads type.
I dunno. When people play "sexy" characters in rpgs it always strikes me as being about fantasizing rather than fantasy. I don't play D&D out of wish-fulfillment. I mean, if I wanted to I suppose I could make every male character I play look like Brad Pitt. But why would I want to when it would be more interesting, fun and imaginative to play an ugly midget? I don't yearn to look like Brad Pitt particularly.
5. Now to the bit about the art, sex sells.
I can't disagree. And hey, I'm not about to deny I don't like looking at pictures of beautiful women. I just don't particularly get off on beautiful women massacring people. As I said in the entry, I like women to be women, both in looks and personality.
Also, I have to be honest and say, the image of rpgs is bad enough as it is. The idea of pasty, skinny geek boys wanking over their pictures of Red Sonja is like an added kick in the teeth that the industry just doesn't need.
Edsan: Well no, I wouldn't kick Lillith out of bed, sure. My main point was that there's no way Lillith would be kicking arse on the battlefield.
Noisms, I think you are mistaking Alexis comment for mine.
ReplyDeleteI was speaking about the athlete, and joking that yeah, in real life guys can like stronger, taller women without being fetishists.
I didn't say a thing about that Lillith character but I'm 100% with you on that matter. If in a game I played the GM unleashed something like her, the airy sound you'd hear would be my suspension of disbelief evaporating.
I think your last post hits the issue right on its proverbial nuts. I have seen people game all sorts of ugly, unpleasant, aged, smelly scarred (nin a bad way) or downright foul male PCs.
I have never seen anyone, male or female, play a female PC who wasn't sexier and more lethal than the player.
Edsan: Sorry, yeah, I was getting your comment and Alexis' confused. It's like 9 in the morning here and I just started work. My brain ain't working properly.
ReplyDeleteLiking big strong women isn't a fetish, no. I just meant that for me, a penchant for big strong women is a bit like a foot fetish, in that I have no interest in either. But hey, different strokes for different folks. To paraphrase Voltaire, "I may not hold your penchant for big strong women, but I will defend to the death your right to find them sexy."
@Edsan:
ReplyDeleteI have never seen anyone, male or female, play a female PC who wasn't sexier and more lethal than the player.
This isn't necessarily true. I've played a very WIDE range of female characters, and not all were all that pretty. Dwarf females are not all that sexy. Especially when they start hitting the age that facial hair starts appearing. Half-orc females aren't all that attractive either.
I will agree to the fact that some people have the tendency to play the same character in the sense that they may all have the same physical attributes but may just be a different class. Rip's sister for instance almost always plays thieves and she always makes the point to announce that they have huge breasts with cleavage clear to their eyebrows. I personally get bored with that. I like playing characters of all physical types/races/classes. That's what makes the game fun. I tend to look at creating characters like one would create a character for a book. They all look different, have their own personalities, motives, etc. If I played essentially the same character all the time then what would be the sense in playing at all? I think that it's fun to play the different characters and see where life takes them. In a sense, it allows me to explore different aspects of my own personality that way.
A group that I used to play with years ago, we had a DM that had us roll for comeliness to go with our stat rolls. Low roll meant a really sorry looking character. The higher the roll, the better looking. He said he thought it was something that forced us to play characters that will have troubles during their adventures simply because they may look hideous and have to conceal themselves in some way or find other ways of dealing with people in general.
Maybe that's something that people could incorporate into their own games to stop the Xena-clone syndrome.
In all fairness, I think the shot-putter you pictured is almost sexier than the Cheesecake Amazon before her. And speaking from a female point of view, that sort of character can be a goddamn load of vicarious fun. I don't really know how to explain. I guess it's sort of empowering to be powerful and a bit sexy, even if it is just imaginary.
ReplyDeleteThat's just my point of view, though. Your complaints are entirely valid and I dig them.
Looking ahead, you addressed the points I was trying to make. I suppose there's nothing to be said for personal preference, at any rate. I tend to play more attractive characters as you probably might have guessed, but if I have interesting stories to tell about an uglier character, so much the better. It can be fun to play against type.
ReplyDeleteI'm probably prejudiced in favor of grotty characters by my affection for both 3d6-in-order and WFRP 1e. I understand the impulse to play someone exponentially cooler than oneself ... it is a fantasy game, after all, and there are more John Carters than Cugels in the source literature.
ReplyDeleteBut as a matter of personal preference, I find it more interesting to play (and run games for) characters who are above-average by dint of their choices rather than their characteristics, and who'd blend into the poxy masses if it weren't for their heroic or avaricious impulses.
Different, um, strokes. :)
@Tala: I meant to say that I, personally around the gaming tables I have been, have never witnessed people voluntarily playing ugly female PCs. I didn’t meant to imply it’s pandemic within the hobby (but I suspect it is very very common).
ReplyDeleteDwarf females are not all that sexy. Especially when they start hitting the age that facial hair starts appearing.
What, when they reach 300 years of age? Man, that a long campaign you’re playing. :)
In a world with magic (or good razor blades for that matter) I hardly think that is an issue any more than it is for women today. And most recent pics I’ve seen of female dwarves are can be considered many things, but unattractive is not one of them.
Half-orc females aren't all that attractive either.
Again; have you seen some of the pics they are doing for she-half-orcs these days?
I think the Lillith syndrome is affecting even demihumans now...
I'm going to agree with Tala on this one. Mostly.
ReplyDeleteJust that if you're going to play a female character who can crack heads, let's not pretend she'll look like Jessica Alba.
And why not? Ok, Miss Alba doesn't really do much for me, honestly, but even if we do bow to a certain level of realism (which I would argue is hardly necessary for a fun RPG), your East German shot-putter isn't any more realistic. That body is the result of a meticulously crafted diet, intense resistance training, and, almost certainly, a regimen of steroids and other strength-enhancing chemicals that no medieval warrior, male or female, would have had access to. Even if your female warrior ate a healthy diet and trained rigorously, she'd not likely look very different from the rest of the female population. In fact, she might look leaner and sleeker, more like a gymnast than your shot-putter. (Judging by the armour that remains from that time, even male warriors tended to be short, wiry little guys by today's standards.) And if she lived through the irregular pattern of feast and famine that was the usual lot of a medieval peasant, her body is far more likely to pack on the cellulite once a dungeon haul makes it possible for her to eat well on a regular basis.
Well, I wasn't born yesterday! But I don't think the idea of women using their sexuality fits with fighting at all. Women have much more powerful weapons than swords when it comes to dealing with men. I don't need to point out what they are... But I don't buy the idea that this would just lead to women warriors not wearing armour. Not wearing armour = death in medieval warfare. I think it would lead, rather, to women manipulating men into doing their fighting for them.
This is two different issues. First, yes, women are most likely to get men to do their fighting for them, but sometimes this involves doing some of the fighting themselves. No woman is going to rely on a single skill or technique to get what she wants or needs. Focused specialization of that sort is a foible of men. ;)
But seriously, there's not much of a wall between "killing" and "femininity" before the Victorians rewrote the rules. It was such sensibilities that gave us Florence Nightingale, the woman as healer and gentle flower of peace. The place of the woman on the pre-industrial battlefield was to go out after the fighting was over, with their mallets, knives, and hatchets, and murder the wounded and plunder their bodies. Mythology is littered with feminine representations of violence, death, and warfare, from Ishtar and Tiamat to the Morrigan and Kali.
Second of all, yes, if the model for your fantasy world is medieval Western Europe, everyone is going to be as armoured-up as they can be for battle. But that's not the only model for pre-industrial warfare. The heavily-armoured warrior is, in truth, an anomaly, and not the rule of even pre-gunpowder warfare.
But it's often argued that portraying women as major butt-kickers is a strike against sexism, by certain parts of fantasy fandom. I was just pointing out that if people really cared about sexism, they wouldn't insist that all such female characters look like Angelina Jolie.
And here I'm in complete agreement with Noisms. Showing a woman kicking much male behind is a modern-day talisman against charges of sexism. After she trounces a gang of male thugs, you can dress her in skimpy leather or a chainmail bikini and put her in all the steamy, bi-sexual situations you want without fear of being labeled a sexist. But it really is just putting lipstick on a pig; you're selling to the same audience as Hustler, you're just making the proper cultural genuflections first.
- Brian
Trollsmyth: First off...Jessica Alba doesn't do it for you!?!? Are you sure you're okay? You're not running a temperature? You don't want to take a lie down and put a wet towel on your forehead? ;)
ReplyDeleteSecond...I think your comment is mostly to do with balancing realism with playability, at root. I actually agree that you wouldn't get very many female shot-putter types in medieval Europe. Women warriors, if they existed at all, would be small and wiry. But even that wouldn't be very realistic. There were no women warriors in medieval or pre-industrial societies generally - the few exceptions (Boudica, Joan of Arc) are those that prove the rule in that they are still remembered as being extremely unusual. (And they didn't do much, if any, fighting - their worth was in inspiring their troops.)
We also know that even given rigorous military training, female upper body strength lags a long way behind that of men. Coupled with that, we also know that women have far more societal and cultural value than men; men are expendable because a society only needs a tiny number of them to perpetuate itself. (One man and a thousand women can produce a thousand children a year; one woman and a thousand men can produce one child a year.) A society that regularly squanders its women in battle will die off pretty quickly.
But if we think about things only through the lens of ultra-realism we'd end up with bored players. Some people want to play women who can kick arse, and I don't want to say to those people "No, that's not realistic." But nor do I want to suspend disbelief to the point that a pert, waif-like sexpot in a chain bikini has a STR of 18. And nor do I want to 'cap' women's STR at, say, 15. So the only solution that makes sense to me is to say that, okay, playing a woman fighter with a STR of 18 is fine with me, but that's going to involve some big muscles and likely hair armpits too... ;)
Hey! They had razors and sugaring by the middle ages! And who's to say some enterprising alchemist hasn't tried to invent waxing or Nair? ;^)
ReplyDelete