Has it really come to this? Must we fight?
95% of the RPG world is this. 4% of it is this. 0.9% is this and this. It is a terrible scene: over-excited, frothy, consumerist, bland, and decadent.
In our sliver of the last 0.1% of the remaining terrain, we must pull together like emperor penguins at the onset of the antarctic autumn. Our aim: to survive the winter with our eggs intact - a task that is difficult enough given that the winter may be eternal. Disunity will do nothing but expose us to the wind and ice. Only common purpose will see us through.
Patrick, Prince: shake hands. I don't care who started it. Let's get back to doing what we do best - making stuff that people of discernment and taste will enjoy, and, above all, writing complete wank on our blogs.
[Edit, 27th December 2021: The title is a Bill Hicks reference, not a finger pointed at anybody.]
Honestly, I don't understand the whole cottage industry of hating stuff you don't like and loathing the people who do like it, thinking somehow that they are bad and poisonous. Whatever happened to shrugging and saying "not for me" and walking on to something you do like.
ReplyDeleteA certain amount of hating stuff you don't like is healthy. It shows passion and commitment, and is probably essential in defining both individual taste and the existence of a 'scene'. When it extends to hating the people who like things you don't like is when the problems begin.
DeleteI actually read this as a bit of a "walking back" from Prince...a chance to start from a place of examination rather than emotional reaction. His post of today is more positive/constructive in defining his stance and POV.
ReplyDeleteAre we really only .1% of the hobby? I'm not so sure about that. Considering the changes from 4E to 5E would seem to indicate it is a fairly influential bit.
Doesn't mean we need to "fight," but disparate perspectives are probably to be expected...and perhaps even necessary to growth and non-stagnation over the long haul.
Well, we can quibble over the numbers, but our slice of the salami is thin enough that we don't need to start slimming it down further!
DeleteWithout knowing the context prince's article was written in, what? Is it purely to mock other writers? This feels like drama for drama's sake really..
ReplyDeleteThere is an element of that, I think.
Deletethis may end up with you joisting at windmills, from prince's recent activity he seems to have very much dug his heels in and made the anti-stance a central position on his blog.
ReplyDeleteits interesting to see that we've reached the reaction stage of our little scene, i guess these things tend to show up the decade or so following the initial kick-off, the rhetoric itself even follows the general puritanical, fundamentalist timbre that other arch-conservarive movements take when going back to the good, pure, clean, glorious past where milk and honey flowed unending.
theres a good handful of dissertations just waiting to be written, tucked into the history of the osr, this new spat (if you can call ubidirectional derision a spat) is certainly one of them
It is interesting that all 'scenes' seem to follow this type of pattern - there really is nothing new under the sun...
DeleteYou don't read my blog, you don't know anything about my stance or what I like or dislike or the reasons for it.
Deletei do read your blog, often; i only recently unsubscribed because i finally figured out the negativity isnt completely ironic.
DeleteYou've got a way with words and have obviously found an audience, good luck to you
Action is fuelled by passion, but it is the action, not the passion that counts. I am blessed with a commentariat that asks questions, that challenges and occasionally, as they did in this case, second-guessed it.
DeleteGood luck to you also.
I am so confused. Isn't this all the same thing? Let's see...D&D, D&D with a different name and older - but not old - rules, huh, the Avatar game is Powered by the Apocalypse - could be neat, and a book that might be of use with D&D.
ReplyDeleteAm I missing something? I'm sure I am as I know my brain works a bit differently from the average gamer but it looks the same to me.
I think that reinforces the point of this post. It’s a call for attention to be turned to commonalities, not endless splitting and hyper factionalism.
Delete“writing complete wank on our blogs”
ReplyDeleteYou have my sword.
; )
DeleteHa.
DeleteI'm pretty sure what's left of White Wolf makes up a larger slice of the mainstream market than Pazio, but the rhetorical point is well made.
ReplyDeleteThis community would be ill served by a civil war. Some might have random tables of axe shape and beard length, others ten minutes of bad poetry for a character sheet, but what unites us is greater than what divides us. Here's to 100 Years OSR.
Fair enough on the White Wolf point.
Delete‘others ten minutes of bad poetry for a character sheet’
DeleteIt’s a blissful thing to feel included in these discussions
Idk, the herbalism book seems like it could be pretty useful in something resembling a Lamentations game? idk what you're on about here.
ReplyDeleteYou rarely seem to know what I'm on about!
DeleteI don't think the personal conflict you envision exists. (Well, not in that form, and not in that relation.)
ReplyDeleteBut I also think the philosophical disagreement does, and increasingly so. What used to be called "OSR" is no longer a single design movement; it is one that has splintered a few years ago, and shall not be put back together again. There are multiple reasons for that, some of them game-related, some political - obviously!
And just like there is a post-OSR sphere which has increasingly drifted away from old D&D (increasingly finding it a problem, an embarrassment), there is one which shall refocus itself on renewing its commitment to classical gameplay and aesthetics (whatever they may be), but this time with stronger gatekeeping.
I don't think the post-OSR sphere finds old D&D an embarrassment - rather the people who play it. This is a shame, but the people who think that way are tiny in number.
DeleteHoly fucking shit, those kickstarters were a cold slap in the face! A fool and his money are soon parted...
ReplyDeleteI know, right? I mean, good luck to them. But, crikey.
DeleteIt looks like the post was withdrawn.
ReplyDeleteI revoked it last night in response to the spirit of christmas and the pangs of conscience. The contest has generated immense enthusiasm because it was creative, it stood for something, rather then merely against something else. It is in that vein that we shall go forward.
DeleteEh, I'm getting pretty bored of 5e but my son LOVES it and it's great to see the hobby growing again. Eventually a lot of people who like 5e will get sick of it and look into or make other stuff. The same thing happened after the previous two big waves of D&D popularity, after they receded there was a big surge in all kinds of other stuff.
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong - I broadly agree with that view. But the point is, 5th edition will look after itself. Our scene is in some ways (though not all) more fragile.
DeleteAside: I backed the herbal kickstarter for a $20 and just got the PDF. It's a fantastic work of art. :-) Disclosure: I collect RPG herbals and wrote one myself for Advanced Fighting Fantasy 2E. The best herbal out there is Fungi of the Far Realms by Melsonian Art Council (publishers of Troika). Genius stuff.
ReplyDeleteI don't have a problem with the Herbal kickstarter exactly. It's just that I think it is decadent, in the sense that it's mostly going to be bought to look and feel nice, rather than be used in games. I don't have an issue with that - god knows I have bought plenty of things I'll never use on the basis they look/feel nice. But it is decadent, in the same sense a tub of Hagen Daz is decadent.
DeleteIce cream is decadent? Who knew? Next you'll be telling me that my pint limit at the local is constrained by prescribe neo-Maoist decadence limits. ;-) Joshing aside, if either of us could raise $800k for a standard real world herbal, I think we'd both be rather happy.
DeleteInteresting, I only saw this response later. I have removed the post, not because I don't agree with it, but because there are indeed more constructive ways to go about it.
ReplyDeleteThere is absolutely a problem with our scene drifting, and becoming a place for shallow self-expression, not gaming. There is absolutely a sense of self-congratulatory preening that is wholly undeserved whn you look at the actual substance. There are absolutely skeletons to be unearthed and critique to be levelled.
But not on christmas day. Let's stand for something good instead of focusing on the defects of something else.
Maybe you're right about those things but the idea that Patrick represents them is almost the exact opposite of the truth.
DeleteThe very best, the greatest of them. But still one of them, willing or unwilling, and by his words was Artpunk defined and brought into being, though it was begetted by a Titan's decree. Mork Bork was translated by his very hand. So of course my criticism must touch on his defenition, his foundation.
DeleteWander into the OSR discord, or on twitter, or in whatever internet pit Gus the Betrayer and Witch-doctor Zedeck hold their court, heed their words and tell me 'These are our brothers.'
If you're against the self-congratulatory, grandiose, and performative parts of artpunk, then that post became what it sought to counter. It came off as merely reactionary, so it's good that you decided to go back to your initial approach shown in the contest. Perhaps less style in favour of more substance in your tone - just like the dungeons you encouraged. OSR itself is an example of this approach. People didn't like something, so they generated a fantastic set of alternatives.
DeleteNobody is denying there is a small coterie of, let's be frank, nutters out there.
DeleteBut I've known Patrick for years and he is basically the diametric opposite of "shallow self-expression" and "self-congratulatory preening". You're picking the wrong target.
"Mork Bork was translated by his very hand" - it wasn't (see my comment further down)
DeleteNow that I have shed my Olympian Fury:
DeleteNo this was not an attack on Patrick Stuart. But it was an attempt to more formally list or critique Artpunk, and for better or for worse, PS is the only one that bothered to define it, so of course his essay bears scrutiny.
Also yes, PS is credited as creative consultant and english writer in Mork Borg, so the link is hyperbolic but not unfair. He gave his blessing if you will.
There is an element of satire or self-awareness to the word 'Crusade' as there is in most things I do. How I went about the contest is very much an indication of my stance: Hearty competition, winks, and more importantly, with the aim of inspiring and creating. The jury is starting to come in on whether I have succeeded with that aim. I do genuinely think that the Artpunk approach has deficiencies or perhaps diverges too much from what the initial OSR was about that are now beginning to manifest.
This puts things in clearer perspective if you haven’t read it yet:
ReplyDeletehttps://osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com/2021/12/a-historical-look-at-osr-part-v.html
I’m not sure your title is going to help bring about ‘unity’...And Melan has got it right, the OSR is a meaningless term now (look at ‘OSR’ on Drivethrurpg), no point plugging holes in a sinking ship.
The title is a Bill Hicks reference. It's not meant to refer to anybody in particular. Maybe a bit too obscure, admittedly...
DeleteBit gutted that he's removed it, as it's been occupying my mind to the point that I feel like writing a response. Perhaps I will anyway.
ReplyDeleteTL;DR I don't think I'd be involved in the hobby if it weren't for "artpunk" in general and Patrick's stuff in particular. Although I think artpunk is mainly a design aesthetic (*perhaps* a writing style) rather than anything of real significance in gaming terms, if you really think that kind of stuff is anti-gaming then it says to me more about your GMing/the GMs you play with than it does about artpunk. No need for you to be able to make that stuff work in your games, but to assume that it ruins other people's gaming is incredibly myopic.
Hmmm, is there a danger of taking a dire wrong turning here? Patrick Stuart is not the target: Prince gave a rave review of the remastered Deep Carbon Observatory, and many of the comments that followed were even more effusive. Rather, it is a criticism of pallid creations that put style before substance, from authors who don't have his talent, or his potent creative collaboration with Scrap Princess. Even having said that, people are welcome to try new things to see if they work, and both "Arty OSR" and "Traditional OSR" are reactions against a backbreaking weight of disappointing 5e hardbacks.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the best way to respond is to produce excellent materials for the hobby. And the authors of No ArtPunk 1 have done exactly that; forget the title, enjoy the adventures, maybe even produce evocative illustrations for them! And if Artpunk 1 were to appear, I'm sure I would enjoy that more than the official WotC offerings.
Maybe you're right and I'm being unfair, but it all felt quite personal to me.
Deleteissie with a lot of this is i think theres a lot of psychic tenderness, concious or otherwise, from the previous blow-ups from certain combative individuals. that, plus the scene itself badically being a small group of maybe 10 big fish and then a small hundreds number of small fry doing their own things and slowly drifitng away, any throwdowns are gonna be magnified in relative importance.
Deleteand fragile is the right word for it, even relative slowdowns in content from peeps like Arnold or skerples makes it clear how long ago the honeymoon was, and we are at the 7 year itch era where we need to actually buckle down and conciously decide to make things better else the spark dies and we become another grunge: nice to talk or reminisce, but almost completely irrelevant.
now, theres plenty of arguments that a) the scene itself is more like 4 seperate scenes all moving in different directions or even b) the candles burned out and things would be better if we took the 'movement' off life support, and i for ine would really like to see those viewpoints reckoned with before qll the big players drift off to something else, somewhere else
As someone who only discovered "the scene" 18 months ago, all this talk of its imminent death amuses me. Of course I was never there for the golden age, but it seems to me that gaming has never been more popular, and as a result the size of that "0.1%" never larger.
DeleteOf course the exact constitution of any scene will morph over time, and experience splits. But if it's just great content you're after - shit's out there. The whole conversation reminds me very much of those old men who bitch that "modern music is shit". Mate, just face the fact that you're never going to see Jimi Hendrix or Led Zeppelin again, and make a bit of effort to find all the great stuff that is out there.
But modern music is shit.
DeleteBwahahaha, I thought *I* was the granddad here.
DeleteModern D&D is also shit. Good shit's there, you just gotta dig.
its a fair point, i couldve been clearer about my meaning: my point isnt that good stuff is out there, its that roiling cauldron that cooked up so much good stuff, so often, is now on simmer and nearly cooked down. What wil DTRPG and the like, nothing is out of print, and blogger is still around for people to peruse the archives, but ever since g+ siphoned up a lot of the creative energy and then killed it on close, and then the rise of discoed goving people their daily taste of 'content' but with much much less meat and no records we are left with a dying (but obviously not dead or even frankly close to death) commune.
DeleteThe parallels of the scene focused on the aesthetics of ruin becoming one itself isnt lost on me either, it might just be evidence of us reaching the comfortable, unencumbered middle years
I don't know - that seems an unnecessarily bleak assessment. I don't think the commune is dying. I just think it's moving to a 'post-OSR' phase which is much less reliant on certain charismatic personalities and is more about good content. This is a good thing in the main.
DeleteFWIW, if anyone feels inspired by my No Artpunk entry to produce evocative illustrations (or even just redraw prettier maps) hit me up. I'm working on the full version of the adventure from which it was extracted but my talents lie solely in writing, not art or graphic design
DeleteI think there's been a general movement, of somewhat mean spirited revisionism (or at least it can come over that way). I still don't give a fuck what ZS does or does not do outside of RPGs (for example... nor am I positioned to judge. In this, I am not unique).
ReplyDeleteBut with his (none game related) purging, entered a spirit of recrimination, one that could be felt across the entire OSR spectrum.
It felt weird at the time, it still feels weird. Old grudges, strange beefs and imagined dragons becoming material.
Still using ZS as an example, Vornheim reinvigorated D&D for me (alongside Yoon Suin), and in fact drew me to the true grogs of the OSR (Melan, Jeff, Prince, Finch, Bowman) . Also it WAS a great supplement. It worked for me. It still works for me. It's since been reconsidered in the light of the somewhat grim age of Spectacle we seem to be inhabiting/living through. I said as much on Prince's blog at the time, I felt the No Art Punk Crusade direction was a shaky proposition... I do think there's satire there however and I think PS is essentially, warmly thought of. And the scenarios produced are actually fucking great... unlike Mork Borg scenarios or any number of other vile offenders that Bryce has faced down. Probably worth noting, that most of those shitty adventures, are not Art Punk. It's just that Art Punk's surface, produces shit.
This is only how it comes over to me. I'm a sensitive, watery,Cancerian fuck.
People are still making great stuff. And there's still great stuff to be made.
Yes, I have observed the same thing, but I think it is now common to all subcultures. There is a very competitive, aggressive, back-biting approach to interpersonal relationships which increasingly seems to characterise online life.
DeleteWhat are these terrible Mork Borg scenarios, by the way, and what's so horrendous about Mork Borg itself? It really isn't my cup of tea, so I've not engaged with it at all, but why is it so loathed?
DeleteI'd be interested to know about terrible Mörk Borg scenarios too. I've run a couple myself and they were a lot of fun for me and the players. I'm not sure I could run a campaign with it, but for one offs it's excellent light relief.
DeleteBTW somebody commented here that Patrick translated Mörk Borg - I'm not sure that his Swedish is quite up to that. He's credited with "English writing and consultation" which, when I spoke to him about it, he said involved being sent the already translated text and suggesting changes to it.
Off the top of my head, Snotsoil Mire springs to mind. There are a good few others.
DeleteI mean, you only need to take a quick look at what Bryce has reviewed (go on). See what you think. I own Mork Borg, btw, and am only interested to see it succeed (so ZERO issue with the game). Prince reviewed a couple also and was mildly more forgiving for one scenario, but on the whole, linear drek without knowledge of what makes a good adventure.
You will note, that the I indicated that we have a problem above and beyond shit MB adventures: "Most of those shity adventures are not Art Punk".
I mean, there IS a craft. But we know this, right? Hey, I thought the new Dune film sucked too, maybe I've been thawed out too soon or too late.
Furthermore, I agree that this goes beyond our subcultures : "somewhat grim age of Spectacle we seem to be inhabiting/living through".
Apologies, I think the sudden lack of paragraph breaks in my original post, made it tough to parse.
DeleteI'm sure Bryce won't mind if I say I find his reviews basically unreadable. I mean, if it's appropriate to review a reviewer.
DeleteI dunno David, I think in his shoes, *I* would mind.
DeleteHis reviews work for me, though they're raw and unedited, for sure. I think his service has been consistently invaluable... with major emphasis upon consistent.
At any rate, his blog continues to bring me joy.
Not sure how we got here though. I can tell you that the scenarios I've read, are shite (So the Accursed Den, Snotsoil Mire and Devil's Tomb). I'd actually like to know the *good* ones, I'd be sure to give them a go.
Phew! Hope the holidays are treating you well.
There may be some - Dan would know. Mork Borg really just never grabbed me.
DeleteHolidays have been good - certainly better than last year!
Deleteforgive me for lost bombing here, but the petit-irony of you being the central hub for community contemplation and news is making me smile, iirc in the oast youve been hesitant to really take the OSR et al as anything more than a weird group of like-minded individuals and here you are on a nanocrusade against bad vibes in the community (admittedly those aspects arent strictly at odds)
ReplyDeleteYeah, fair enough. Although I don't think I exactly qualify as a "central hub"!
Deleteyoure comments generally have an order of magnitude more comments/interactions that any of the other semipopular faces roundabouts, for better or for wrose i think youre as close to a community taste/mores maker that the OSR has (or, at least, the nebulous artpunk hemisphere that is centered in the centerpoint between you, patrick, and arnold/skerples).
Deleteheavy's the head that wears the crown haha
A community taste/mores maker.... I suppose I'll take that!
DeleteOn one hand, no, there's no need to fight. And "crusading" against an aesthetic movement is completely pointless and naive.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, though, crusading against crusading is equally pointless. You can't force anybody to agree with anybody else about aesthetic preferences.
There's no Antarctic winter out there that only united we can survive. Different tastes and opinions are what they are. People will play what they like and won't play what they don't. Is a monoculture even desirable? I don't think so.
Crusade has an ironic twist to it, but I don't entirely agree. Communities and cultures diverge over time and periodically suffer reformations, friction and internal conflicts. Conflict can produce good things, as it has in case of this competition, because the energies have been properly chanelled. It has produced, not destroyed. If I write a negative review and I put actual points for improvement in there, some people might be turned off but they have an opportunity to better themselves. That essay was pure destruction, so I reconsidered and removed it.
DeleteAny community or sub-community that aspires for expansion or longevity requires signal boosting, enthusiasm, and periodic attempts to define what is good and what is false.
Merry Christmas.
I agree with Prince on this. A certain amount of both internal and external conflict is desirable in defining the boundaries of a subculture.
Delete