Friday 5 May 2023

Wizardknighting High Level D&D

[This is the second in a series of posts. Reading the first one is useful but not necessary.]

High-level play is a perennial problem for D&D. This is partly just a consequence of inherent or structural factors - most campaigns start at 1st level so there is just way more advice and material available with respect to games involving low-level PCs, and there is anyway a general bias in the human psyche toward preferring stories in which the main character begins as a callow neophyte and arcs towards heroism rather than starting out as a megastar to begin with. (Roger Zelazny is the main author I can really think of who repeatedly bucks that trend, although even his ubermenschen - Corwin of Amber or Sam of Lord of Light - start off as hampered by memory loss or similar and grow to a position of greater strength.) 

And partly it’s a problem to do with the rules themselves. By the time PCs have high AC, low saving throws, and lots of hit points they’re very hard to kill and combat can become a slog without constant tactical experimentation and cunning that places a drain on the DM. And once magic-users start to get access to 4th and 5th level spells they become essentially demigod-like, especially if there are two of them in the party and they can create synergies accordingly. 

This means that what tends to end up happening is that the DM has to devote his energies to thinking of ways to hamper the PCs through increasingly desperate wheezes - usually through positing super-villains or resorting to deus ex machina. This in turn transforms the campaign into a kind of caricature of a Superman comic, in which every week the PCs are confronted with some enemy wielding a new version of what is basically kryptonite (either in the form of ever more powerful magic items or abilities, or enhanced cunning). This changes the balance of the game entirely, and not in a good way. Low-level D&D really works because it’s about rogues, and rogues roaming a sandbox easily set their own goals. High-level D&D tends to reverse that - it’s about superheroes, and their goals almost inevitably therefore start to derive from the DM-as-quest-dispenser (an evil archmage has kidnapped a favoured NPC; a zombie plague appears; a mysteriously skilful thief steals the PCs’ treasure, etc.). This saps their agency and also frankly just gets boring. 

During the 2nd edition era TSR put out a book with pointers on how to run a high-level campaign - High Level Campaigns, it happened to be called - and it is full of the kind of advice one would expect. A good adventure, we are told, 'unfolds like a novel or short story', and 'contains plenty of excitement, especially at the beginning and the end'. We then learn that 'effective preparations start with an adventure plot'. It's hard sometimes to remember that this is how everybody thought in 1995, and most people still think now. But in any event the book is basically useless for anybody whose OSR-influenced campaign is heading into high-level territory.

What, then, can one do instead? 

In The Wizard Knight, the main character, Able, ascends to demigod-hood halfway through the story. (I’m not giving anything away - it’s flagged extensively throughout.) He returns to the human world having spent the equivalent of two or three decades in Skai, the equivalent of Norse heaven, and now has the power to increase his size many times over and to heal sicknesses and injuries - and he also gets to ride around on a giant telepathic unicorn that can fly. He basically goes from being, say, a 3rd level fighter to a 20th level paladin. 

Wolfe handles this in three ways. First, Able has to make a promise to the god of Skai who he has been serving, the Valfather, that he won't use his powers. It's only on that basis that he is allowed to return from Skai in the first place. This, naturally, becomes important to the plot in various ways. As an idea for a campaign in a game like Pendragon the concept of PCs voluntarily vowing not to do certain things because of promises made to gods, and struggling to stick to those vows, would work really well; for D&D, it perhaps is less fitting, though of course that depends on the tone of the game.

Second, it becomes important for Able to be able to ascend upwards through the layers of existence so that he can eventually get to Kleos and ultimately Elysion. His long-term goals therefore shift over the course of the novel. High Level Campaigns recommends traveling between worlds, or planes, as a good focus for high-level D&D, and this has after all often typically been the function of planar travel throughout the history of D&D - an answer to the question, 'What does my 12th level PC do now?' 

Is there, then, a way to incentivise this kind of gear-shift by - heretically - changing the XP advancement system from one based around GP = XP to one based around going up levels through interplanar travel, once the PCs reach a certain level of experience? Maybe, for example, the rule could be that PCs advance as normal to 9th level through garnering gold, but from 10th level onwards, they advance by getting XP for going from plane to plane. Since going from plane to plane itself involves trying to find keys to portals and so forth, and since there are potentially infinite planes, the campaign would thereby remain being mostly player-led.

And third, in the second half of The Wizard Knight, Able - having achieved great power and status - changes his objectives regarding those around him. He begins to see it as part of his mission to be a good example to them and help the young ones in particular grow into knights themselves. Another heretical idea therefore suggests itself: what if at 9th level (or whatever) PCs no longer gain XP from gold or their own actions, but from helping their own henchmen advance? What if each time a henchman goes up a level, the PC gets XP? 

The final observation is that part of the joy of the second half of The Wizard Knight is trying to imagine what it looks like for somebody to be riding around on the back of a flying horse while wielding a magical sword that summons an entourage of ghost warriors, and fighting an army of giants. That ought to be fundamentally appealing to anybody, and it's easy to lose sight of the fact that high-level D&D posits precisely that type of event as a natural part of its domain.

35 comments:

  1. Earning levels through Interplanar travel? Sounds ideal for TRoAPW.

    Actually selling the longing to ascend and the moral reasons for remaining is a little difficult, of course. It works in The Wizard Knight - would it do so on a different scale?

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    1. Hard to say. That bit of it probably does need a tiny element of heavy-handed intervention by the DM in the form of an encounter with an extraplanar or supernatural entity.

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  2. Classically, hasn't it been common to have high-level play transition to domains? Problems of logistics that application of individual power can no longer directly solve.

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    1. Yes, but at that point I think it ceases to become an RPG and more like a strategy game?

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    2. From reading The First Fantasy Campaign, I think this was always the end-game. You adventure to make money and gather power. You then build a fort/keep/tower and build up an army to participate in the great annual war. The war concluded and if your keep survived, you managed and grew it while sending out more adventurers to do it all over again. At least, this is how it reads to me. I don't think any of that made it into any version of D&D.

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  3. "Hello, travelers from another plane..."
    "SHUT THE FUCK UP WHERE IS THE GOLD I NEED TO LEVEL UP!"

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  4. I'm loving this - mostly because The Wizard Knight, but also because you're coming up with interesting ways to integrate henchmen/allies and domain-level play with a moral and spiritual purpose. Players could choose not to ascend, in which case they focus on their domain and allies. Eventually, they'll probably want to advance - maybe in ways that are unique to ascending the planes - and will have to prove themselves worthy of it. I'm running Odyssey of the Dragonlords with a group right now, and I'm wondering if I can emphasize these themes in our campaign...!

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    1. The PCs in my regular campaign are at the 6th-7th level threshold at the moment so thoughts naturally turn in that direction...

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    2. Wizard with 4th level spells, incoming...

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  5. In my old '80s 1e game the PCs ascended to godhood and the focus shifted to acquiring Worship Points, which powered their divine abilities. I discuss it a bit at https://immortalshandbook.com/simony.htm There was a lot of interplanar travel, battling rival gods and such.

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    1. I think the most useful post is https://immortalshandbook.com/simony3.htm

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  6. "'What does my 12th level PC do now?'" I think IME 9th-12th level is where the PCs are typically just getting established as important figures in the realm; with one or more dominions, rival lords, threats from giant & humanoid invaders, perhaps a big war. Wars and politics are great at this level - the PCs have the power to influence events, but can still be threatened.

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    1. Yes, and a good excuse to crack out the Warmaster rules.

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  7. "First, Able has to make a promise to the god of Skai who he has been serving, the Valfather, that he won't use his powers."

    But this is just another issue of Superman. In fact, I think it was the plot of Superman 2.

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  8. "'What does my 12th level PC do now?'"

    G1, G2, G3, D1, D2, D3, S1, S3, EX1, EX2, WG5, WG6, X10, CA2.

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  9. As a hybrid approach, what about planar currencies? It won't have the Wizardknighting effect, but it may lend itself instead to a sword-and-sorcery texture.

    The doughty lord sits in his palace surrounded by the wealth of the ages and feels nothing. Gold has lost its lustre. Until one of his far journeying courtiers / wise soothsayers / demonic servants tells him of the blue crystal roses that grow on the sapphire beaches of the Nightly Shore. The fire in his blood is stoked once more, prepared for a deadlier and more glorious adventure than ever before.

    Maybe this sort of approach can be a buffer between gold-for-xp and wizardknighting. Past nth level, gold no longer gives xp, but each blue crystal rose is 1000xp. A few exist in this world, but to find them in quantity you must travel the planes! There may be many such currencies associated with various planes. Once the PCs are already planar travelers, switch to xp-for-planes or henchman xp.

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    1. Interesting, and kind of reminds me of The Dirdir and the currency of 'sequins'.

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  10. What the Byzantine said. Although I bit my tongue the esteemed Mr. McKinney's assertion about "family clans will own spaceships and will keep their gold, silver, and gems in iron vaults guarded by a man, his brothers, his cousins, his father, his sons, and his uncles," I think that Drain about hit it: "Imagine the fight to get to the precious few graph calculators that survive the wipeout." Gold holds no more value than the value of Gold (I mean, it's kinda shiny and malleable - but I got that 3D printer, boss).

    to quote the Michigan Argus, October 2, 1863: "The Farrell or big well is valued by its owners at one million dollars, and has cleared since it was struck, so it is rumored, over eight hundred thousand dollars for its owners. A diamond mine, if sufficiently productive, might approximate in value to a two thousand barrel well, at the present time, but no gold mine in the world yields so large a return, in proportion to the working expenses, as some of these oil-wells on the banks of the Ohio."

    What is the coin of the land two steps up or down? (I am assuming a ladder type arrangement rather than a wheel). Almost inevitably cattle raids land somewhere, or a nightmarish cattle equivalent. Further - the stuff has different value depending on the home realm. GP is of limited utility to a high-level PC with powers cosmic perhaps, but to an Arch-Archon who can fashion new skin out of the stuff, it's pretty tasty. Unfortunately, he starts disintegrating immediately on entry into the Prime Material - speed run every time. Even better - you can win a bunch of Ultracows without breaking the economy! Can you milk em? Not if you care to keep your hands intact. Useless.

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    1. I definitely like the ladder arrangement idea, if only just because it's different to Planescape. Up is good, down is bad.

      I think I've heard it said, or read it, er, written, that a big reason why gold is such a good way of storing value is precisely because it's not really useful. We would never have ended up using it for currency if we could have found productive things to do with it.

      I also recently heard that in Buenos Aires to guard against inflation people tend to put any savings they have into buying bricks. Bricks retain their value and can also be used to build extensions onto your house. Coming soon to a developed economy near you.

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    2. I think you and I both know the answer is MuMufication. Except a perverse iteration where the Bricks of Mu are bought and sold on the open market.

      I will not confirm or deny my possession of a Squadron Supreme trade paperback whose inks contain Mark Gruenwald's ashes.

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    3. "We would never have ended up using it for currency if we could have found productive things to do with it." Salt rather puts the lie to this.

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    4. I'm aware Roman soldiers were paid in salt but I don't believe salt has ever been the basis for an entire economy. I could be wrong!

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    5. I think there’s a credible argument to be made that salt is the basis of all economies as it was one of, if not the first traded good. Rome exists because it sits at a crossroads where salt was traded.

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  11. The idea to overhaul XP at higher levels is interesting but it poses a few practical concerns. What is to prevent players from dipping their toes into The Abyss before quickly porting back, restricting themselves to a single encounter? Some measure of achievement or gain must be associated with it and for that magic items or treasure (of esoteric, cosmic nature no doubt) are still the most effective shorthand. Most other solutions default back to either some proxy for combat or the dreaded 'milestone XP.'

    I've a copy of Wizard Knight but I have not yet come around to it. Sounds delightful.

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    1. Dragonbane RPG gives a skill check (the BRP equivalent of an XP award) for "Did you explore a new location"? I find this works well enough in play. It's up to the GM to decide what counts, of course. Dipping toe in would not count as 'explore'.

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    2. Going by a reasonable standard irks the dev in me. You want people to go in full pull but you should have some semi-objective standards for it. Maybe a list:

      * Meet its ruler
      * Encounter at least 3 of its major/most powerful inhabitants
      * Obtain at least one treasure of n XP value or more
      * Visit at least 3 major locations for one day or more

      And then pick a few? I still think Gold for XP is one of the most reliable yet dynamic measures and I have found no replacement that is as good or better.

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    3. "Going by a reasonable standard irks the dev in me" Noisms and me are both Common Law lawyers/jurisprudes, maybe that's why we favour 'reasonableness' as the best standard in GM adjudication. >:)

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    4. Interesting comments. I think in my own head I was imagining that figuring out how to get to another plane and finding the key to the portal would itself generally be difficult, so being able to travel to another plane would in itself constitute an achievement.

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  12. I have awarded experience for exploration before and it does have a parallel but not identical effect to gold for XP, re incentives. I think you're right that it might work.

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  13. MM - "one based around going up levels through interplanar travel"

    The problem I have with generalized notions of high-level play is that in my opinion the higher the level the more wide-ranging the environment to the point of breaking the game, or forming a new one. In this sense low level play is an English garden and high level play is one of the startling extreme wildernesses dispersed throughout the world, and these cannot be formalised.

    "Another heretical idea therefore suggests itself: what if at 9th level (or whatever) PCs no longer gain XP from gold or their own actions, but from helping their own henchmen advance? What if each time a henchman goes up a level, the PC gets XP? "

    This idea I like and it could be developed. AD&D should have a concept of decrepitude for its heroes. The sword & sorcery fighter is in swift decline in his late thirties as a brawler. The magic-user may be in decline after his twenties unless judgment plays a large part in magic.

    However, if the declining powers could be offloaded onto favourites and loyal proteges, then attributes might be bestowed to npcs in return for loyalty, carefully designed. In fact this might be a two way process if followers perform very well in their battles or adventures then Wis and Cha and Lvl of the chief (PC) may benefit.

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    1. "The problem I have with generalized notions of high-level play is that in my opinion the higher the level the more wide-ranging the environment to the point of breaking the game, or forming a new one. In this sense low level play is an English garden and high level play is one of the startling extreme wildernesses dispersed throughout the world, and these cannot be formalised." Nicely put.

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  14. "Under a Dim Blue Sun" is a short by Howie K Bently that will make for an incredibly entertaining afternoon

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    1. My apologies, I thought this comment was on an old post about recommendations, not your most recent.

      I should add that I've enjoyed this set of blog posts greatly. Planar Cosmology is one of those great promises of the PHB and DMG alike but is rarely followed up on (how many campaigns have featured gehenna and acheron and hell...)

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    2. Thanks very much!

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  15. A very good working example of Xp for exploration is Ultraviolet Grasslands.

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