Thursday 29 June 2023

Goodies versus Baddies: Good or Bad?

D&D PCs kill lots of ostensibly sentient beings, and often other humans, and don't usually think twice about it.

Is this good or bad? In some ways, the OSR can be understood as a backlash against a predominant squishiness on this point that had emerged and gained traction during late-TSR/early-WotC era. Whereas Gygaxian D&D had been 'intensely relaxed' about the idea that orcs and the like were simply there for the killing, that approach had gone out of fashion during the course of the 90s, to be replaced by two somewhat paradoxical impulses. On the one hand, there was a growing desire to 'humanise' (for want of a better word) the traditional evil humanoid races and treat them essentially as misunderstood 'others' whose very 'othering' was problematic. And on the other it had become de rigeur for the PCs to be conceived as morally complicated, edgy anti-heroes - the pinnacle of this trend being the creation of the Tieflings as everybody's favourite PC race - and as a consequence it had become hard to commit to good versus evil as a legitimate metaphysical struggle; what we were into were shades of grey. 

These two trends, which never quite sat well alongside one another, nonetheless somehow combined into the notion that there isn't really any metaphysical difference between humans and (say) orcs, that there was something a little embarrassing about 'black and white' moral thinking, and that it was terribly grown up to feel a certain amount of angst about traditional D&D's purportedly simplistic goodies-and-baddies style morality. 

The OSR was in many ways a rejection of this dominant paradigm. This did not come in a return to goodies-and-baddies style morality, however; if anything, it took the form of an even more wholehearted embrace of moral relativism. Indeed, we saw during this period the expression of a strong antagonism towards qualms. D&D PCs, the proponents of the OSR used to say, are murder-hobos. They are rogues. They do not have alignments; they are not heroes; they loot and kill for a living. Therefore, the reasoning went, there is no point in being moralistic about what goes on in a game, and no point in being squeamish. So the PCs encounter a load of orc babies. What difference does it make if they kill them or not? This does not mean anything - it is just part of the slightly arch, detached tone of the game.

Until recently I too broadly would have broadly gone along with this view of things. But at a certain point in the career of concepts, what was once counter-cultural becomes the mainstream, and what was once mainstream becomes counter-cultural. And so it is with 'goodies versus baddies' style morality. It is now very far outside of our cultural comfort zone to accept stories in which there are good characters who are just intrinsically good and bad ones who are just intrinsically bad (have you noticed how almost every villain in the movies for the last 25 years has needed to have been given a reason for turning out the way he has?). And it is even further outside of our cultural comfort zone to accept stories in which an unquestionably 'good' person attacks and kills vast swathes of enemies on the basis simply that he is a goodie and those enemies are straightforwardly evil and recognised to be such. (Top Gun: Maverick was execrable but a possible counter-example.) We tend to think of that kind of story - Rio Bravo, The Lord of the Rings, The Adventures of Robin Hood, etc. - as at best corny and at worst childish.

This, though, makes the timing ripe for a rediscovery or reinvention of the notion that the PCs in a D&D campaign could actually be heroes in the old-fashioned sense and the creatures they encounter unreconstructed villains. In a tired, jaded, cynical world, would there not be something refreshing about embracing the goodies-versus-baddies motif, and doing something fresh and interesting with it?


38 comments:

  1. I'm in a strange position here. My first RPG's where Warhammer Fantasy, so I'm very accustomed to the idea that the PC's are grey at best. But I love something of Warhammer that I've already transported to all my games: in a world of greys, there is also a very profound and deep darkness that you can destroy without thinking twice (Chaos in Warhammer, for example). I love putting the players in moral dilemmas, but sometimes it's also cathartic to break some beastmen skulls without thinking about it twice!

    In my D&D creations I tend to be 'light grey'. I really like the idea of good heroes doing good things and when I play I tend to play as that (I'm that tipicall player that tend to talk to everything -reaction rolls are great!- and I try to be a diplomatic player, and generally I try to do the right thing) but my players tend to scorn 'good guys', but I think that they scorn more the concept that the real deal, so they tend to be light grey, although they pretend to be edgy and dark grey... Sometimes they cheat, they are pretty unloyal and tend to be pretty selfish, but in the end they fight the good fight and tend to hate the forces of evil (chaos, darkness, orcs, etc...) so I paint the world in a light-grey style and they fit in more easily.

    I really like the idea of playing a game of 'good guys doing good things'. It may sound cliche, but in my more than 20 years of playing I've never played a game like that, so it would be something new to me!

    Thank you for your post.

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    1. It would be something new to me too, which says a lot, I guess!

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  2. There is nothing wrong with imagining an orc-sensitive point of view for an AD&D campaign, but it is likely a one-trick-pony and will play itself out. Obviously the internet communists want to infect the whole gaming community with political ideas like this so that everyone games in a universally accepted manner.

    "" what was once counter-cultural becomes the mainstream, and what was once mainstream becomes counter-cultural ""

    No. There is the classical culture for intelligent people which is a through stream across generations and there are the turbulent fads and fashions of the weaker intellects. I, for one, am unaffected by the political tossing of popular culture because I reject it.






    ====
    Kadot

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  3. Grey vs. grey is the default in OSR for a good reason: it gives the players more options. I've had players ally with my goblins twice which was completely unexpected as a DM. Having it at least be POSSIBLE within the context of the game for the PCs to murder or befriend just about everything they come across is in keeping with OSR ideas.

    But that doesn't mean morality can't mean anything. To make it mean something to the players it should mean something in the game.

    One way of doing that which works well is to have the PCs' sidekicks emulate their behavior. PCs often collect some kind of sidekick or pet and they often love these sidekicks beyond all reason. Having those sidekicks look up to the PCs and try to be like them is a great way of making the good/evil of the PCs real without it feeling like a straightjacket for the game.

    Similarly if the PCs give you rope, hang them with it. You don't have to try to engineer it, PCs will give you plenty of things if you're patient. Just when the PCs roast the legs of the satyrs that they killed for dinner and throw the rest of the satyr in a ditch, you better believe that there'll be vengeful legless satyr undead crawling after them.

    Just the main thing to avoid (as I'm sure I don't have to tell you) is "you're good and they're bad, so you have to go fight those specific guys so the story can happen."

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    1. The point about greyishness allowing player choice is a good one. Someone said somewhere that goodness in RPGs should be *hard*. Perhaps previously it had been default, to the point of "no matter what you do, you're still the goodies". Or else, as you said, "do the goodie thing so story can happen". But neither of those mean anything. But when they know they have a choice, and morality limits them, then it becomes a moral choice ("do not take from the tree"). I don't really know whether goodness need be harder than that. The point of mere limitation is the point of abandonment for many in real life already.

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  4. I've always mostly played in Glorantha or in real-world settings where there is no 'good vs evil' but an 'us vs them' opposition. Lunars kill Sartarites, Sartarites kill Lunars. That's just the way it is. We kill our enemies because they follow the wrong suzerain/religious leader. Period.

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    1. Interestingly I was just listening to an interview with Victor Davis Hanson talking about Cortes and how the conquistadores had exactly this kind of mindset - a totally coherent philoshophy as to why they were entitled to vanquish and massacre their opponents. It is a fascinating subject to me.

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    2. Deranged Nasat30 June 2023 at 19:30

      The philosophy is just a justification for the tribal (and so individual) self-interest. I suppose there's a certain respectability in a philosophy that at least tries to close ranks and fully embrace its role as shield rather than collapsing under contradictions and illogic the moment it's probed. But people are self-interest all the time. Which is why, to my mind, only the self that is served by universal worth of other beings can meet my subjective ethical standard. Easy for someone lacking common tribal dynamics to say, of course. We have no choice. To harm or screw over or neglect others is to damage the self, and vice versa actually. Which is why I ponder sometimes -- neurotypical Dunbar numbers (apologies if I botched the spelling) are about 150. Those of us with no tribal dynamic -- is the number infinite, zero, or one?

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  5. Yes but with the following caveats

    A - It's hard to do genuinely engaging "good vs evil" drama, doubly so with a modern audience that mostly considers morality to be completely relative and while also considering themselves to be objectively good because of the political opinions they hold.

    B - 99% of gamers have never been within a country mile of a genuine moral dilemma and anyone who has is unlikely to ever want to relive it in anything as socially crass as a normal RPG session

    And if my gaming group is anything to go by as soon as you actually relax the alignment restrictions like they ask and then have the NPCs start acting like self serving nasty pricks as well, it suddenly becomes clear that what they actually meant was that they wanted to be the only ones throwing their weight around in the world

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    1. Deranged Nasat30 June 2023 at 18:30

      Sure, "Serving our selfish interest and resisting any restrictions while insisting on everyone else being restricted, all justified because We Unlike Them Are Righteous". 'Tis the way of the neurotypical, my friend (and why neurotypical moralising should be ignored, since there's never any ethical or logical coherency if you examine it, its purpose is providing an excuse for pursuit of deeper interests with an appeal to some communal good to take the edge off). Ethical dilemmas are only meaningful to those whose ethical stance strives for consistency and whose psychology is dependent on a shared framework of honour to which they are subordinate (no tribal dynamic). Otherwise the answer is just "what serves me (my in-group being important through selfish use to me and my self-concept)" -- with the understanding that what serves them is often conformity to an imposed norm reinforced by the entire collective of self-interested squabblers afraid to let tribal outgroups operate freely with impunity. What I'm saying, I suppose, is that different types of people inherently work differently and trying to universalise a concept of what ethics is runs aground on that variety.

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    2. It's, uh, kinda ironic that in the course of criticizing those who appeal to morality to justify in-group/out-group dynamics you identified a diverse group, characterized by psychological and not ideological grounds, that you are not a part of as being as a whole morally deficient and not worth consideration as ethical actors.
      Or to put it another way, "We [neurodivergents] unlike them [neurotypicals] are Righteous"
      But of course you may feel free to roundly ignore me if I do not have enough ADHD to understand good and evil

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  6. 'It is now very far outside of our cultural comfort zone to accept stories in which there are good characters who are just intrinsically good and bad ones who are just intrinsically bad (have you noticed how almost every villain in the movies for the last 25 years has needed to have been given a reason for turning out the way he has?).'

    I'm less than certain of this - yes, there's a lot of villains explaining their motivations and given reasons. But there's an awful lot of have-your-morally-grey-cake-and-eat-it going on. The Force Awakens, kicking off a new round of Star Wars films had the unmasking and defection of a Stormtrooper - with a rally later to demonstrate that the First Order really are shouty authoritarian zealots you can blow up without feeling bad. John Wick (of the eponymous series) might have any number of crimes to his name as a former assassin, but (especially in the sequels) in the long fight scenes one can just remember that they killed his dog, and watch handsome, mournful, stoic Keanu Reeves shoot assorted underworld goons. That the whole thing takes place in this supremely insulated criminal underworld only heightens the effect.

    Hell, a few YouTube videos on the Transformers films informs me that those movies are dripping with Black Ops conspiracies - to whit, the epitome of the morally murky - yet the lasting impression is likely one of the primary colour robots fighting the murky-shades robots. Doubtless more examples could be found.

    I suppose my conclusion is that actually achieving incontestable [Goodies-and-Baddies clarity] / [amoral murderhoboism] / [genuine shades-of-greys rather than indecisive mishmash] status in a book or film or game (principally the latter two?) is difficult, and probably rare, but can be genuinely refreshing or novel when one encounters it.
    Of course, there are probably more failed Shades-of-Grey projects out there than failed Goodies-and-Baddies projects. No reason why one couldn't shift the balance somewhat.

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    1. Yes, I may have been speaking a little extemporaneously there. Perhaps a better way to put it is that we see very few genuine 'goodies' nowadays - the goodies tend to be anti-heroes or at best 'flawed'.

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  7. I started playing D&D at age 10 back in 1980. It never occurred to me to feel bad about killing the monsters.

    I saw Star Wars at age 7 back in 1977. It never occurred to me to feel bad about Luke, Han, Leia, and Chewie killing stormtroopers. I have never felt anything but joy when Luke blows-up the Death Star.

    At an even earlier age, we played "cops and robbers" and "cowboys and Indians" and innumerable other games in which we killed each other and imaginary bad guys. It never occurred to me to feel bad about the imaginary killing of imaginary foes.

    At least as far back as age 4 we played with little toy soldiers. They did little more than shoot each other, drop bombs on each other, incinerate each other with flame-throwers, etc. No bad feelings. Only the purest of fun.

    Etc.

    I do not remember any of my friends, schoolmates, acquaintances, etc. back in the day ever expressing the thought of any sort of sorrow or guilt over slain monsters and bad guys in games, books, movies, toys, comics, etc.

    I suspect that this is solely (or nearly so) an adult issue, not a children's issue.

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    1. No doubt that's true. I of course had exactly the same type of experience. But this would seem to indicate the squeamishness will get more pronounced wiith age?

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    2. Or perhaps we just develop a theory of mind.

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    3. It probably is, as you have said, an adults issue. We are, unfortunately, adults. Even earlier, you played at the game of holding your breath for nine months. It's not a game you can play any longer.
      There is consolation, though. Now you get to play at the game of waiting, of watching, of thinking, and enjoying all the good of the world; all the while you keep in your heart the joy of battle against evil so that it may suddenly burst forth in glory! You played about in daylight; now it is night, and you may watch and wait and burst with expectation as a firework streaks silently in the sky. There is so much more *meaning* to it. The day is the day, but a firework is a celebration!
      It's a great and unspoken-of joy of playing a character who is really Good. These bandits are hungry, this cultist is deceived, these goblins are oppressed. You restrain yourself, you show mercy when you can, you place them where they can do no harm and try to help their souls. But here! Here is a Monster! And you could almost jump with joy if you did not hate it with such ferocity.
      I can't hardly express it without sounding khornate. Go read Chesterton, he can put it well I think. I mean only to say there's joy in mercy and joy in wrath, and they are best when held together in their bounds like a pattern of stained glass. Blue tears, red blood, gold joy.

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  8. One of the best times I've had with PSR RPGs were two campaigns DMed by the same person with almost 0 moral relativity when it came to monsters. In one we were true heroes, motivated pfimarily by fighting evil and making the world a better place. In he other we committed horrible crimes and dealed with the dark forces on the regular. Good times.

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  9. I personally blame the drow.

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  10. It's best if the campaign world contains every shade of morality from the whitest white to the deepest dye, with all the shades of gray in between. The players should play "gray" PCs if that's what they want to play, but most of my players prefer being the good guys, and so do I.

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  11. "have you noticed how almost every villain in the movies for the last 25 years has needed to have been given a reason for turning out the way he has?" - Yes, but I don't think that this necessarily makes the villain gray. Having a reason for being a villain doesn't mean that you aren't evil.

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  12. Humans have moral dilemas. Monsters not. Monsters are not humans, monsters are monster. And monster must to be defeated.

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  13. Deranged Nasat30 June 2023 at 18:10

    I tend to think it's another casualty of the increased blurring of the boundary between fantasy and reality, by which I mostly mean, in fact, the realisation that there is a vast array of individual capacities for making that distinction. What I think confuses the discussion on how "appropriate" it is to have (sorry to use this term) "problematic" elements or actions in a game is that some people draw a hard and easy line between fantasy and reality and others don't. For example, to me the line is hard. I'm a pacifist in reality, but will gladly kill casually in a game if it's fitting to the character, or just interesting or amusing. But some people don't distinguish easily, and think that willingness or eagerness to act in fantasy means desire to do same in reality. The intriguing point is that I can't just dismiss that as many observers do, because for them specifically it might be true. Which raises questions of appropriateness that have to incorporate awareness of a very complex plurality and an attempt to find some common standard. And indeed, I can argue and moan at length about what message is received through constant cultural depictions of, say, assumed righteousness or killing of "lower men" whilst doing it myself in roleplay -- because my concerns about all the people who don't easily divide reality from fantasy have no bearing on my own ethical and logical standards, and my fantasy life has no bearing on them either... except if my fantasy life is public, because then I have to consider what message others are receiving, and that will differ based on who they are. If that makes sense?

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    1. Yes, this is an interesting point - and it raises the question of the blurring of reality and fantasy as a result of increased time spent online, as well. I don't think it's crazy to argue that the 'extremely online' phenomenon has a connection to an inabilitiy (of some) to recognise the distinction between what is real and what is 'just' online or just in one's head.

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  14. Once someone asks "Ok but what about this particular monster makes it evil" I dont think theres usually a satisfying answer. There can be, I want there to be, but it requires more effort than I see usually. Why do these orcs need to die? Why this dragon? Just because you say so? I think thats a very important questiion to be asking in a world where bad people make shit media for you to just consume uncritically, but then it also makes hack and slash games a little more dubious sometimes. Thats why I try to have good amsers ready.

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    1. So what are the good answers? Don't keep us in suspense!

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    2. Evil is as evil does. Why does the evil entity demand a young virgin to be sacrificed? Because she is the most valuable to her people, the potential of their futures, barer of their next generation. This demand for her destruction is the epitome of malice and contempt. In other words evil.

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  15. Traditional D&D awards experience for gold. Hence, the objective (serving self interest) is "get the gold". Kill for it, steal it (thief class, anyone?), do a job for it, or be tricksy and talk someone out of it. Gold pcs = XP => more power and glory (and ability to get gold). It's a simple game at this level. Higher questions of morality aside, it's essentially just a game about acquiring a commodity any way you can. If it helps you to declare whatever stands in-between you and your goal as "bad", I suppose that's a form of rationalization.
    Cheers!

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    1. Yes, you're absolutely right - so I think a 'good guys' campaign more or less has to be based around a different XP system.

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  16. The truly novel thing about '74 D&D is that the players all succeed together as a group. It's cooperative rather than competitive play. Rather than bash the player next to me and take their stuff, we all bash the referee's world and take stuff from "the world" and divide it up equally. That way we all win. The concept seems pretty successful as a "game" considering how quickly it spread. What this all says about morality is interesting enough to debate.

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  17. One of my favourite character types to revisit is the plainest, straightest paladin possible. Not an edgy avenger to illustrate that authoritarian moralism is evil really, not Lawful Stupid, not a comically prissy Goody Two Shoes, just a good guy trying to do the good thing. I feel it was already counter to stereotype to cleave so closely to the stereotype when I first started playing in the late '90s.

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    1. Yes, me too - that hits the nail on the head for the kind of tone I want.

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  18. I've been running an explicitly good guys campaign for a couple of years now and it's great. (Homebrew, not D&D or very closely resembling it, but a dungeon-crawling, wilderness-trekking exploratory game nevertheless.) The morality of the campaign isn't mine, exactly, but it is metaphysical truth in the campaign setting: glorifying and serving the one true God, who demands that false gods be resisted and the innocent defended. I made this explicit when inviting players, so they knew what they signed up for and they've made the most of it. My main tool in keeping that moral framework in the game is designing the xp system around it. You can see how doing the right thing nets you xp in this document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16G_kyhl2E9p34oGtF2IaaCav-Jj0BDYCnSt5ItaCf14/edit?usp=drivesdk

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    1. Nice! I am going to have a look at this carefully. I've got a post coming up about the subject.

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  19. "These two trends, which never quite sat well alongside one another,"
    - not true. They are both parts of the "fantasy punk" outlook which incidentally is depicted in the same classic works of fantasy which inspired D&D creation itself. Vance, Leiber, etc. "Edgy complex characters" we can see in works of Moorcock and his friends.
    I'd even say that the tendency you talk about have NEVER became mainstream. Current popularity of "comics culture", potteromania, etc., clearly demonstrate how mainstream culture and its consumers are hungry for "Goodies vs Baddies" and how they prefer to ridicule "Edgelords" to actually accept more complex moral issues into their entertainment. ;PP
    While I do like Chesterton's texts about the "conservative revolution", he never would allow it to include such kowtowing to mainstream. And, to a degree, his ideas were opposite to what modern G-vsB discourse is. Though, of course, Tolkien was inspired by him and that movement.
    Mike

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  20. One relatively fresh study on the subject which I think is actually the matter here:
    www pnas org / doi / 10.1073/pnas.2107848118
    Mike

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