So, let's imagine you were a 1st level Magic-User going on a first foray into a dungeon. Which spell would you choose to memorise assuming you had access to the entire range of spells you were able to cast at your level?
Now, imagine you were a 2nd level one. Perform the same exercise.
Do that up to 20th level.
Post the results in the comments. There are only two rules:
1. Use the default number of spell slots for magic-users from AD&D 1st edition. For reference, these are:
2. Use only the 'core' spell lists from the AD&D 1st edition PHB. Again, for reference, these are:
At the end, we shall collate the results and thus, objectively, conclusively and categorically prove which the best spells in AD&D are.
Very fun. Maybe worth a share at the blog, very interesting for NAP contestants. I've played a 15th level MU and seen one in action so here goes. Some utility like Contact Outer Plane generally gets cast before the jaunt so I'm not sure whether to count it but here goes.
ReplyDelete1 - Sleep
2 - Sleep, Charm Person
3 - Sleep, Charm Person, Invisibility
4 - Sleep, Charm Person, Hold Portal, Invisibility, Web
5 - Sleep, Charm Person, Hold Portal, Light, Invisibility, Web, Fireball
6 - Sleep, Charm Person, Hold Portal, Light, Invisibility, Web, Fireball, Clairvoyance
7 - Sleep, Magic Missile, Hold Portal, Feather Fall, Invisibility, Web, Knock,Fireball, Clairvoyance, Charm Monster
8 - Sleep, Magic Missile, Protection From Evil, Feather Fall, Invisibility, Web, Knock, Fireball, Clairvoyance, Slow, Charm Monster, Wall of Ice
9 - Sleep, Magic Missile, Protection From Evil, Feather Fall, Invisibility, Web, Knock, Fireball, Clairvoyance, Slow, Charm Monster, Wall of Ice, Animate Dead
10 - Sleep, Magic Missile, Protection From Evil, Feather Fall, Invisibility, Web, Knock, Mirror Image, Fireball, Clairvoyance, Slow, Charm Monster, Wall of Ice, Animate Dead, Hold Monster
I had it up to 20 but my comment was too long. TBC.
11 - Enlarge, Magic Missile, Protection From Evil, Feather Fall, Invisibility, Web, Knock, Mirror Image, Fireball, Clairvoyance, Slow, Dispel Magic, Charm Monster, Wall of Ice, Dimension Door, Conjure Elemental, Hold Monster, Passwall
Delete12 - Enlarge, Magic Missile, Protection From Evil, Feather Fall, Invisibility, Web, Knock, Mirror Image, Fireball, Clairvoyance, Slow, Dispel Magic, Charm Monster, Fire Shield Wall of Ice, Dimension Door, Conjure Elemental, Hold Monster, Passwall, Transmute Rock to Mud, Anti-magic Shell
13 - Enlargex2, Magic Missile, Protection From Evil, Feather Fall, Invisibility, Levitate, Web, Knock, Mirror Image, Fireball, Clairvoyance, Fly, Slow, Dispel Magic, Charm Monster, Fire Shield, Wall of Ice, Dimension Door, Conjure Elemental, Hold Monster, Passwall, Transmute Rock to Mud, Anti-magic Shell, Tensers Transformation
14 - Enlargex2, Magic Missile, Protection From Evil, Feather Fall, Invisibility, Levitate, Web, Knock, Mirror Image, Fireball, Clairvoyance, Fly, Slow, Dispel Magic, Charm Monster, Fire Shield, Wall of Ice, Dimension Door, Conjure Elemental, Hold Monster, Passwall, Transmute Rock to Mud, Anti-magic Shell, Tensers Transformation, Reverse Gravity
15 - Enlargex2, Magic Missile, Protection From Evil, Feather Fall, Invisibility, Levitate, Web, Knock, Mirror Image, Fireball, Clairvoyance, Fly, Slow, Dispel Magic, Charm Monster, Fire Shield, Wall of Ice, Dimension Door, Wizard Eye, Conjure Elemental, Cone of Cold, Hold Monster, Passwall, Transmute Rock to Mud, Anti-magic Shell, Tensers Transformation, Reverse Gravity
16 - Enlargex2, Magic Missile, Protection From Evil, Feather Fall, Invisibility, Levitate, Web, Knock, Mirror Image, Fireball, Clairvoyance, Fly, Slow, Dispel Magic, Charm Monster, Fire Shield, Wall of Ice, Dimension Door, Wizard Eye, Conjure Elemental, Cone of Cold, Hold Monster, Passwall, Transmute Rock to Mud, Anti-magic Shell, Invisible Stalker, Tensers Transformation, Reverse Gravity, Simulacrum, Polymorph Any Object
17 - Enlargex2, Magic Missile, Protection From Evil, Feather Fall, Invisibility, Levitate, Web, Knock, Mirror Image, Fireball, Clairvoyance, Fly, Slow, Dispel Magic, Charm Monster, Fire Shield, Wall of Ice, Dimension Door, Wizard Eye, Conjure Elemental, Cone of Cold, Hold Monster, Passwall, Transmute Rock to Mud, Anti-magic Shell, Invisible Stalker, Tensers Transformation, Reverse Gravity, Simulacrum, Power Word: Stun, Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank
18 - Enlargex2, Magic Missile, Protection From Evil, Feather Fall, Invisibility, Levitate, Web, Knock, Mirror Image, Fireball, Clairvoyance, Fly, Slow, Dispel Magic, Charm Monster, Fire Shield, Wall of Ice, Dimension Door, Wizard Eye, Conjure Elemental, Cone of Cold, Hold Monster, Passwall, Transmute Rock to Mud, Anti-magic Shell, Invisible Stalker, Tensers Transformation, Reverse Gravity, Simulacrum, Power Word: Stun, Polymorph Any Object, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Wish
19 - As before + Mind Blank
20 - As before + Timestop + Desintegrate
20 - As before +
Ah, memorising the same spell more than once. That's thinking outside the box.
DeleteEnlarge is a pretty good utility/defensive spell (and diminish isn't bad as an offensive spell at high levels). Wouldn't spend two slots on it, though.
DeleteEnlarge at high levels is a 200% (10% per level) increase in size and corresponding damage.
DeleteA closer reading is more nuanced, but Enlarge would still make the target equivalent to a giant of the appropriate Size. Assuming 6 ft. height (Dutch) 10% per level is equivalent to 18/00 str at level 10 and something like Frost Giant Strength at level 20.
DeleteGod love you, O Prince, but that's not how enlarge works.
Delete[apologies for being a pedantic jerk, but since we might be playing AD&D together in a few months, it's probably best to elucidate my stance NOW rather than later]
It's generally in the "nuance" or (in Gygax's case) any explanation that attempts to use real world terms and physics where the spell descriptions in the PHB goes off the rails. Let's take a look at what the text says:
"a maximum additional growth of 200%" (that would be at the 10th level of casting)
"While magical properties are not increased by this spell...weight, mass, and strength are."
SO...let's start with weight and mass. A 6' tall, 180# (81.6kg) man whose weight/mass was increased by 200% would be 540# (245kg). That's pretty big.
A stone giant (12' tall) of the same exact proportions (assuming similar bone/muscle density), would weigh 1,440# (653kg). Why? Because you are doubling in three dimensions, not two (height, width, length). So the proportional weight/change change is not doubled, but multiplied by a factor of EIGHT.
No, your Dutchman would not have Frost Giant strength. He would not even have Stone Giant strength.
I think it's important to look at the effect Gygax was shooting for (the "spirit" of the spell). I think, with regard to combat ability, his only intention was to increase damage by the percentage, with a capped maximum (in this case, 200% or triple damage) without regard to bonuses. Otherwise the spell...in combat...would be a better choice than the 2nd level spell Strength. I do not think that was Gygax's intent.
Also, there are substantial limitations to enlarge...I would address your attention to p.44 of the DMG. Many fighters probably wouldn't want to go bursting out of their armor (the spell only affects one living or non-living object...not the gear that is carried). So triple damage for a human with a 200% size increase is still only going to be via pummeling/grappling...unless you use that second enlarge spell on the character's sword.
; )
Memorising the same spell more than once: is that really considered thinking outside the box, or was that sarcasm?
DeleteIt’s the norm in my groups for memorisation casters, especially when you have a good idea what you’re up against: there’s a lot to be said for versatility, but if you know you’re going up against frost giants, yet another fireball is going to be better than lightning bolt, if you need fly to get somewhere otherwise unreachable other party members might need one too…
Obviously, but this is a 'prepare the best default spells' exercise.
Delete@becker
DeleteAh. My initial reading was correct, also lol, I don't need a lecture on the square cubed law. Thank you for elucidating your point however.
As for strength...well, as written enlarge has drawbacks related to ceiling height and armor size (although magic armor would resize itself surely), not to mention the often weapon damage you would take. There's also the lower duration, by a factor of six. I see no reason why being large would suddenly impact your ability to deal damage with a weapon if you only increase by a factor of 200%..
RE armor resizing itself
DeleteWould it?
; )
RE damage
Indeed.
It appears you are quite correct w.r.t. armor resizing. P. 124 of the DMG treasure tables lists magic armor as being 65% human sized, 20% elf-sized, 10% dwarf sized and 5% human sized. So the spell has a further drawback, perhaps being suitable for use on monks or summoned creatures.
Delete1: Magic Missile
ReplyDelete2: Charm Person, Magic Missile
3: Invisibility, Charm Person, Magic Missile
4: Invisibility, Levitate, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Shield
5: Dispel Magic, Invisibility, Levitate, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Shield, Sleep
6: Dispel Magic, Fireball, Invisibility, Levitate, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Shield, Sleep
7: Dimension Door, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Invisibility, Levitate, Web, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Shield, Sleep
8: Dimension Door, Polymorph Self, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Fly, Invisibility, Rope Trick, Web, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Shield, Sleep
9: Teleport, Monster Summon II, Polymorph Self, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Fly, Invisibility, Rope Trick, Web, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Shield, Sleep
10: Monster Summon III, Teleport, Polymorph Self, Wizard Eye, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Fly, Invisibility, Locate Object, Rope Trick, Web, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Shield, Sleep
11: add Telekinesis, Polymorph Other, Lightning Bolt
12: add Geas, Magic Jar, Fear
13: add Disintegrate, Explosive Runes, Detect Invisibility
14: add Limited Wish
15: add Contact Other Plane, Wall of Force, Wizard Eye
16: add Clone, Monster Summon V, Move Earth
17: add Permanency, Power Word Stun
18: add Time Stop
19: add Bigby's Clenched Fist
20: add Wish and Invisible Stalker
Magic missile over sleep! Controversial.
Delete"At the end, we shall collate the results and thus, objectively, conclusively and categorically prove which the best spells in AD&D are."
ReplyDeleteThis is ridiculous.
Many of the BEST spells in AD&D aren't the kind of thing you memorize before going on an adventure. Find Familiar, for example, is probably the single most useful spell available to a 1st level magic-user. The 7th level spell Cacodaemon is also incredibly useful, and the first spell I'd choose to learn upon reaching 14th level.
However, NEITHER of those spells makes sense for a dungeon delve. The casting time alone (let alone the spell components) makes them prohibitive in the dynamic, dangerous environment of a dungeon.
The type of dungeon itself would also play a huge part in what type of spells you're slotting. I'd want a very different spell load-out for the Caves of Chaos compared to some evil temple complex.
Ridiculous. However, I will submit my own list...when I have the opportunity.
I mean there are a tonne of caveats, but if you had to formulate a 'general loadout' for a scenario where you would not be entirely sure what you were going to encounter, perhaps that would be a better exercise.
DeleteAgree that the difference between preparation and field spellbooks is a big deal.
Sure. But to say that a “standard adventuring list” reflects the best spells is kind of silly.
DeleteI’d want to make sure I have the proper spells for familiars, homonculi (you need mending!), golems, and…of course…enchanting magic items.
Also, cacodaemon is a no-brainer, first choice 7th level spell…but you’d never carry it into a dungeon.
I was only being tongue in cheek about the 'best'!
DeleteAll right, all right. My apologies, man.
Delete*sigh*
ReplyDeleteThis is not a list of the "best" spells in AD&D, but this will be my best "walking around" list, by level. Under the rules you've laid out, my choices are being made with the assumption that the party includes a cleric of at least equal level, and some fighter types.
1st: Sleep
2nd: Feather Fall, Sleep
3rd: Feather Fall, Sleep, Invisibility
4th: Feather Fall, Read Magic, Sleep, Invisibility, Knock
5th: Detect Magic, Magic Missile, Read Magic, Sleep, Invisibility, Knock, Slow
6th: Charm Person, Magic Missile, Read Magic, Sleep, Invisibility, Knock, Slow, Tongues
7th: Burning Hands*, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Read Magic, Sleep, Invisibility, Knock, Levitate, Web*, Slow, Tongues, Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer (RNE)
8th: Burning Hands*, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Read Magic, Sleep, ESP, Invisibility, Knock, Web*, Fly, Slow, Tongues, RNE, Wizard Eye
9th: Burning Hands*, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Read Magic, Sleep, ESP, Invisibility, Knock, Web*, Fly, Slow, Tongues, RNE, Wizard Eye, Animate Dead
10th: Charm Person, Magic Missile, Read Magic, Sleep, ESP, Invisibility, Knock, Web, Fireball, Slow, Tongues, Polymorph Self, Wizard Eye, Animate Dead, Leomund's Secret Chest (LST)
11th: Charm Person, Magic Missile, Read Magic, Sleep, ESP, Invisibility, Knock, Web, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Slow, Tongues, Charm Monster, Polymorph Self, Wizard Eye, Animate Dead, Contact Other Plane, LST
12th: Burning Hands*, Charm Person, Detect Magic*, Magic Missile, Read Magic, Shocking Grasp*, Sleep, ESP, Invisibility, Knock, Web, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Slow, Tongues, Charm Monster, Polymorph Self, RNE, Wizard Eye, Animate Dead, Contact Other Plane, LST, Teleport, Stone to Flesh
13th: Burning Hands*, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Read Magic, Shocking Grasp, Sleep, ESP, Invisibility, Knock, Mirror Image, Ray of Enfeeblement*, Web, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Phantasmal Force, Slow, Tongues, Charm Monster, Polymorph Self, RNE, Wizard Eye, Animate Dead, Contact Other Plane, LST, Teleport, Anti-Magic Shell, Stone to Flesh
14th: Add Power Word Stun
15th: Add Ice Storm, Magic Jar
16th: Add Disintegrate, Limited Wish, Otto's Irresistible Dance
17th: Add Mordenkainen's Sword, Polymorph Any Object
18th: Add Shapechange, change Polymorph Self for Minor Globe of Invulnerability
19th: Add Mass Charm
20th: Add Invisible Stalker, Power Work Kill
Feather Fall is an unexpected choice. Common sense would dictate it if you were really going into a dungeon but I've only very rarely seen it used in games.
DeletePerhaps by 4th level you can sub out feather fall for detect magic...I probably kept it one level too long on my list.
DeleteBut you don't want your low level magic-user falling into a 10' or 20' deep pit and breaking their neck. Cutting down on the "death by misadventure" when you're still in single digit hit points should be the goal of all PC magi.
[which is why FIND FAMILIAR is such an important spell and should be the first spell acquired at 2nd level if it wasn't one of the spells determined upon character creation]
I'm looking to hire a freelance TTRPG writer. Are you available?
ReplyDeleteEmail me at noismsgames AT protonmail dot com if you like.
DeleteI hope in their excitement the gentlemen are not forgetting their daily studies. Memorization takes 15 minutes per level, per spell, after a decent rest, in AD&D 1e.
ReplyDeleteThese spell numbers per day are optimal and not in any way regular for higher level MUs.
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Kadot
Well yes, but we're deailing with an optimal abstracted situation.
DeleteHey Mr. Noisms, I tried subscribing to you by email but it gives a 404 error. I am not sure if it is on your end or blogspot as a whole.
ReplyDeleteHmm. It doesn't work for me either. I'll investigate.
Delete