Friday, 29 November 2024

Bridging the Representative Diversity Divide

You may have heard that there has been something of a kerfuffle lately, concerning attacks made by various of Wizards of the Coast's stable of designers and hangers-on against the older editions of D&D and their various insensitivities about language, lack of representation of non-white people, casual depictions of slavery, and so on and so forth. This is, apparently, happening in tandem with a gradual 'wokeification', if I can use that term, of the game in its most recent iterations, opinions about which - naturally enough nowadays - tend to cleave along culture war lines. 

This highlights the extent to which people in the culture war on both sides generally tend to interpret each other's conduct in the least charitable way possible, and thereby convince themselves that people with opposing views are evil and malevolent rather than just adopting a different perspective. 

I thought therefore it might be useful to give the most charitable interpretations I can think of to the two sides in the 'representativeness' debate in order to see if there can be an armistice of some kind. Because I think in particular people who are in favour of what I will call representative diversity tend to interpret the kneejerk reaction against 'wokeness' as being evidence of barely concealed or inchoate racism, when actually it's best to descibe it as a pretty understandable feeling of being unfairly demonised. 

Let's start, then, by putting the case for representative diversity at its strongest: for years and years it was mostly straight white men (or, let's face it, straight white adolescent boys) who played D&D, and they tended rather unthinkingly and generally unconsciously to behave in ways that were insensitive or exclusionary. A great example of this, not from D&D, actually comes from Palladium Fantasy, in which homosexuality appears in a list of variants of insanity (in my memory - I don't have the book in front of me - this is fairly early on in the text itself). Other more visually obvious examples would be the tendency to only ever depict women as looking either like supermodels or else witches or hags, or to only ever depict black or brown people in the context of being 'savages'. All of this was entirely understandable in historical terms simply because it is an ineluctable feature of the human experience that people tend to stereotype or typecast other people who don't physically resemble them. But it put off people who didn't fit into a particular paradigm and, hey, why put people off? Why not make the game more 'inclusive'?

What, then, could be the reason for the counter-reaction? Let's again put the case at its strongest and with its most charitable interepretation. It has I think three distinct limbs, though these interrelate for reasons which will be obvious. 

The first is that people can smell a rat with respect to the way in which companies like Wizards of the Coast operate. There is absolutely nothing genuine or principled about the way representative diversity is put into effect at the commercial level - it is happening simply because D&D for a long time had a core market of nerdy straight white adolescent boys and that market is in relative terms getting smaller and smaller. The diversity is there because of entirely cynical reasons - it isn't because Wizards of the Coast are a charitable foundation trying to improve race relations across the Western world, or making their own game more inclusive because they're just such nice guys. Fake sincerity is grating to everyone, and some people (I include myself in this) have a fine-tuned sensitivity against it.

The second is that nerds are nerds, and some nerds care about things 'making sense' in particular ways. Until very recently in human history most societies simply were not racially diverse in anything like the way they are now. And so something feels 'off' about presenting fantasy medieval societies as looking, in racial terms, like a cosmopolitan modern city. Similarly, there have never been human societies in which men and women's roles have been exactly the same and not in any way, to use modern parlance, 'gendered'. Here, the opposition mainly comes from a position of a desire for verissimilitude. The standard response to this - 'This is a game with magic and dragons in, so why do you care about realism?' - is well-known, but slightly unfair; when it comes to fantasy settings, tastes for the level of realism that different people prefer simply vary. 

The third is that the trouble with trying to increase representative diversity is that it is difficult to do it in such a way as to not appear to be acting sanctimoniously and/or snidely. Too often it comes alongside a (consciously or unconsciously) mean-spirited insinuation: 'You have a problem with this, do you? It's because you're a racist. You are, aren't you?' For people who are perfectly well aware that they have no racist bones in their own bodies, and who have just been innocently enjoying pretending to be an elf for years and have never 'excluded' anybody from anything, there is something galling about being implicitly cast as a villain in this way. And in this regard it bears emphasising that respresentative diversity is very frequently, indeed all too frequently, framed by an assertion that the hobby would just be 'better' in some sense if it was less 'pale, male and stale'. There are only so many occasions on which a person can accept being told that their very presence - or the presence of their type of person - is undesirable before they start to simply get pissed off. And the anger is justified; if everybody is entitled to equal concern and respect, then that means everybody is. 

Both sides in the representative diversity debate, such as it is, therefore have good faith arguments. And when two people are approaching a disagreement from a position of good faith, what tends to happen - if they don't listen to each other properly - is that they start to convince themselves that because their own position is good, the disagreement can only have arisen becaues the other side is bad. They begin to forget that it is possible for people to disagree for good reason. And this makes the disagreement more intractable, because the participants grow more convinced that compromise is undesirable (since compromise with somebody who is definitionally bad can only ever be an unjustified concession). This is, obviously, to be regretted, because it transforms such disagreements into winner-takes-all conflicts when the truth is that the stakes are probably considerably lower than either side realises. A more sensible public discourse is available - in every respect. 

45 comments:

  1. I would think that Elon Musk has more important things to do at the moment (seeing as he's been appointed to a cabinet position by the President-elect) then to get into internet "kerfuffles" over the slandering of Gary Gygax. But I guess I'd be wrong.

    Man, I think your heart is in the right place with this post, but there are really only two types of people here: 1) those who want to fight on one side (or the other) of the current "culture wars," and 2) those who just want to play D&D. I fall into the latter category these days (though, in the past, I dabbled a bit in both) and I think that doing so has led me to have a "charitable view"" of the two perspectives. I grok their beef. But it doesn't matter to whether or not my current D&D adventure sucks, you know?

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    1. To the extent that there has been a 'vibe shift' lately I definitely think it is more towards your position and away from culture wars.

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  2. As regards the idea that verisimilitude would dictate a less diverse population -- that's really a mistaken belief anyway.

    Particularly around the Mediterranean, cultural exchange was deep and wide. But even up in the pasty-whiteness of medieval England, there would have been influences brought by Roman soldiers/settlers, visiting academics, traders, etc. Sure, small farming villages might be fairly homogenous, but once you get to a larger city, things are going to get more diverse - and the bigger the city, the more diverse.

    Just in general, if a game world has a robust trading network, there will be diversity. Appeals to "but historically..." are probably in good faith, but wrong.

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    1. I thought somebody might say this. I don't think it matters, but I'm not sure I buy it. No doubt there was some degree of cultural exchange, much more so in the southern Med and in port cities. But beyond that we are talking about comparatively tiny numbers. That doesn't actually make a difference to me particularly, but I think the 'medieval Europe was actually really diverse' line is a bit over-egged.

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    2. I came here to say this. The larger, more cosmopolitan ancient empires (the most relevant to Europe being the Roman Empire) were absolutely racially diverse. Granted, that diversity was probably more prevalent in the urban centers in the Mediterranean and Southern Europe than it was in the relative backwaters of Britain and Gallia. But I do think it is broader than just "port cities" as you say, due to Moorosh Spain, Ptolmaic Egypt, and Carthage. A 5E rule book illustrationof a city teeming with racial diversity isn't really anachronistic or ahistorical.

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    3. I'm honestly not wedded to this - I like the aesthetic of the highly diverse megalopolis - but I think you're misrepresenting things slightly. In the post I said 'most societies', and I would just re-emphasise that most societies in the pre-modern world were not like the cities of Rome or Carthage in classical antiquity. No doubt there were plenty of places that were comparatively racially mixed in the sense that we would understand it today but they were not the norm. That isn't to say that they weren't 'diverse' in the sense that, historically, human cultures were much more fragmentary than they are now, of course.

      But, to repeat - I'm not one of those who particularly cares about this. I like the idea of the teaming fantasy city-state filled with a great variety of different peoples. It doesn't matter to me.

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    4. Diversity as the failed utopian ideal pushed by the current regime and presented as true in the 5e books bears zero resemblance to historical diversity and its underlying tensions, and a cursory examination of Roman history (ref. Livy, Ceasar's Gallic War, Tactitus's Germanica et. al.) should reveal this fact, their attitudes, and the actual reality.

      I advocate the current divide should be kept.

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    5. Kinda depends on where you're talking about though. In early medieval Ireland for example, I don't think it was particularly diverse. Sure, in big empires and around major trade routes and places like the med it might be, but there's huge swathes where it wasn't.

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    6. One thing to note is that cultures meeting in history hasn't always been sweetness and light. To quote Private Joker from Full Metal Jacket, "I wanted to meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture ... and kill them".

      A further point is that I like as much player agency as possible. If your fantasy society has faults, the players might lead by example and show folks a better way. They could have their own "Gimli/Legolas" friendship moment. Or not, as they choose.

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  3. Oof. That's a can of worms.

    You're third example also should include a bit about 'structural racism', where society as a whole has made judgments on different races. The more zealous of the Woke cultural warriors lump people are not overtly racist but who still follow these cultural cues with the people who ARE overtly racist. If you are one of these people targeted as such, of course you are going to be offended by the assertion that you are racist.

    I am a bit on the woke side myself, but I don't believe it's my place to lecture people. Unfortunately, quite a few of the Woke have gotten it in their head that they need to crusade to get rid of any vestige of racism, including structural racism. Too much effort for limited rewards. I left the religion I grew up with precisely because it was filled with all these annoying zealots, so I am equally turned off by it when I see it on my 'side'.

    I am hopeful that you are correct, that the vibe shift has been away from the culture wars. That would be a relief.


    The Heretic

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    1. It's just a hunch but I think that the culture war has peaked. You notice it a lot more in the Zoomers. They're kind of over it. It's what their teachers and 'aunties' are into.

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    2. The culture war has peaked because the fascists have won, and people are going to start having more serious problems than how many black wheelchair-bound lesbians there are in the PHB.

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  4. My favorite game is Gary's 1970s D&D (both the original and the advanced books). I want it unchanged, warts and all. I feel the same way about everything that I like, whether book, movie, song, you name it. Nothing is perfect in this world. Let us enjoy all the imperfect creations (that are of ravishing beauty anyway) of imperfect men.

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  5. there are, actually, a handful of examples of "ungendered" societies throughout history, the pre-colonial Yoruba being the most widely-cited. and even in "gendered" societies, lines between genders were historically far more fluid than we'd assume today. I'd recommend that everyone read about sexologist Thomas Laqueur's "one-sex" model of sexual ontology in pre-18th-century Europe, and the practical ways this translated into culture, legal practice, daily life, et cetera. might write a longer comment about this later if people are interested. but functionally-- assuming that a medieval peasant would have the same understanding of gender as you do is completely ahistorical.

    and that's ofc not even mentioning the countless societies that had a default acceptance of and dedicated roles for trans people...

    that's the trouble with gender: it's tremendously easy to be myopic about it, and not recognize the tremendous *artificiality* and *arbitrariness* of the present status quo (not to mention how comparatively recent it is) without an actual deep dive into history and anthropology and all that mess.

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    1. There's nothing artificial or arbitrary about gametes, chromosomes or hormones. Nobody is saying that medieval peasants had the same understanding of 'gender' as us (they wouldn't have understood the term). But to pretend they did not have different sex roles is, I am afraid, complete baloney.

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    2. The Yoruba people are trotted out by people who know nothing of the culture, and instead use some linguistic quirks and superficial aspects of labor division to argue for the existence of indigenous ungendered societies having some precedent. Read this for some academic work that preceded their elevation to trans-totemic status:
      http://www.arsrc.org/downloads/uhsss/alaba.pdf

      With regards to "trans" people in other non-western cultures, they often had it foisted on them rather than self-electing (in many places they were socially similar to a eunuch class), were stigmatized and mistreated, and while sometimes viewed as a third gender, they were not viewed as members of the class defined by their opposite sex.

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  6. The only way forward is to just completely forget about both WotC and the people wasting bytes talking about it. (I'm sure no one is talking about this in real life)

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    1. I agree. That's the synthesis between the thesis and antithesis.

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  7. I would give my own thoughts on the matter, if I actually fucking cared about this stupid mess.

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    1. Yet you cared enough to post this comment! ;)

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  8. Your first argument against diversity is basically the "Rainbow Capitalism" argument. Companies like Wal-Mart or Disney or somesuch signal support for queer rights and visibility for profit but not out of principled support, they use the regular logo the second pride month ends, removing gay kissies from the Chinese film ports, etc. etc.

    The thing is, invoking Rainbow Capitalism as an anti-diversity argument has always been really weird to me. Is the issue that they insincerely support good causes when they should be more principled and genuine about it, or is your issue with the causes themselves and you want them dropped?

    I should also mention that companies being pro-[insert social good here] even in an obligatory sense is a good thing, in the sense that broader society is tolerant enough that feigning tolerance is a profitable decision. Or to put it another way, it would be a bad sign for society if it was unprofitable to be socially conscious, and it would be even worse if it was profitable to actively signal being anti-racial diversity, anti-queer, etc.

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    1. What you're essentially asking here is whether hypocrisy is good or bad. The answer is it's bad. It's not good to present oneself as acting virtuously when one is in fact acting out of self-interest. No doubt it is better to do nice things from a position of hypocrisy than it is to do nasty things, which is what you are alluding to in your last paragraph, but it doesn't win you friends or respect. That is in the end the point I wanted to make; it is a big part of the reason why people have a kneejerk reaction against 'rainbow capitalism' as you put it. They don't like being lectured to by people who are manifestly hypocrites.

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    2. I also think it's bad to be a hypocrite, but there's hypocrisy in the kneejerk reaction you describe as well, that I was angling at. If you think [COMPANY]'s signals at [VALUE] are shallow and you think they should actually properly commit, you arrive at a good position. A somewhat naive one, delve deeper into Rainbow Capitalism and you get into how it's kind of impossible for any profit-driven body to be "sincerely" anything aside from "sincerely profit-driven" and with the right carrot and stick they'll cater to literally any position (doesn't mean it's wrong to want things to be better though). But if you say "their signals at [VALUE] are insincere" but then think they should just drop said values altogether, then at best you're throwing the baby out with the bath water and it causes negative add-on effects as you so point out. At worst, you're making a hypocritical bait and switch argument and your contention isn't the inhuman corporate maneuvering, it's that they put a rainbow on something.

      Or to put it another way, every decision a company makes is necessarily hypocritical because their only reason for doing anything is "make more money" and anything beyond that is marketing. People will criticize the hypocrisy, of doing a good thing for bad reasons, but then what they're actually mad at is wokeness and they want them to do bad things for the same bad reasons.

      Note that I don't mean "you" as in "literally you", as I don't know what your positions are. Just that I've seen these conversations play out more times than I can count and I wanted to identify a particular rhetorical device I often see.

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    3. I think two issues are being conflated here. I'm not suggesting there is a great knock-down argument against representative diversity. I'm trying to explain the push-back against it. No arguments, when you boil them down, are really rational. They're about emotions on both sides. The logic runs: you are a hypocrite and you are telling me to do something, so I am going to dig my heels in and not do that thing. This is really elementary human psychology. (The other side of the debate, of course, is equally rooted in emotion - in the best sense, a feeling of compassion, and in the worst sense the desire to signal virtue.)

      On the question as to whether a profit-driven organisation can behave virtuously - clearly they can. But most people will go with their gut in determining when that is true; there aren't hard or fast rules. A good example is probably Kirk and Uhura's kiss, which the Star Trek producers genuinely thought was a big risk and would lead to the show getting cancelled, but which nobody objected to because it was obviously done for sincere motives (and in any case was self-evidently not a big deal). The 'tell' for me with Wizards is the way they very pompously declare, while merrily continuing to sell older editions of the game, how objectionable the content is. If they really found it objectionable they wouldn't be selling it. For me the hypocrisy is therefore pretty naked on their part. That isn't a reason for me to object to representative diversity as such but it is a reason for me to loathe the company.

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    4. Is that hypocritical though? Warner Bros still airs shows and sells DVDs featuring old racist Loony Tunes cartoons, but with disclaimers saying that they're products of their times, they don't endorse or approve of them, but permanently vaulting them would be equivalent to abdicating responsibility and erasing history (which would be bad). WotC could make the older distasteful D&D material wholly unavailable, but then you would get people saying that the pushes for diversity are now Orwellian in nature or something and equally as bad. The only other alternative is releasing the objectionable stuff with no comment, but that presents its own issues. Or releasing them with disclaimers for free, which I agree, more things should be free (it's not like most of these older books aren't already floating around everywhere).

      And I agree that the Kirk/Uruha kiss wasn't that big of a deal, today. But that episode aired only a year after interracial marriages were made legal in the US, and anti-miscegenation laws were ruled unconstitutional, and a LOT of blood was spilled over that subject for years before and years afterwards. Stuff like that is *made* into a big deal, and I don't think the engagement is always equal.

      All this to say, all arguments are irrational when you boil them long enough because they come down to axioms and everyone picks their axiomatic values for arbitrary reasons, but that doesn't mean an irrational argument isn't still irrational and therefore a bad argument. Other commenters have thrown their hat into the ring in a partisan fashion, so I'll say that my purpose very much *is* to provide a knock-down argument against the pushback. The arguments against representative diversity might be "good faith" in the sense that they're made in sincerity, and aren't dishonest or maliciously attempting to drag the conversation into farce, but that's different from being "good" in the sense that they're sound, stand up to scrutiny, or lead in a good direction. You can hash out, quibble over, and discuss the details and implementation without having to abandon representative diversity as an ideal, which is a bad thing with no real good reason to do or support.

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    5. [Second part because length.]

      WotC is staffed by ex-Microsoft ghouls who don't believe in anything, but you don't have to let yourself be typecast as "guy who is angry that D&D has genderfluid elves", which ultimately serves to reinforce the arrangement (in a way that coherent and principled opposition or challenge doesn't).

      Sturgeon's Law dictates that 90% of arguments in service of any particular viewpoint will be terrible. But you can remain as the 10% out of principle, spite, and superiority as "guy who does your job but better".

      As Tom Van Winkle pointed out below, a lot of nerds often have myopic views about history. But more to the point, at some point you have to put your foot down when it comes to the realismwonking. Armed bands of grave-robbing priests and civilians are ahistorical, but we're playing a game about diving into dungeons. Rapiers and crossbows existed alongside gunpowder, but guns have always been optional in D&D because it changes the tone of the thing, and because "what should the rules for guns be" is an eternal nerd slapfight you can never win, only survive. Someone describes his Fighter as wearing an anachronistic trenchcoat-esque jacket, but what do I gain from cracking down on this superflous detail he envisions his character having? "Sorry but your guy has to have a shorter jacket, also it's a doublet"?

      In Arthurian Romance the knights were men and the love interests were princesses, but the needs of the players come before the game (without players, you have no game), so if someone at my table wanted to play as a lady knight, that can be accommodated while still preserving the premise and core gameplay. I would do much the same if I was publishing an Arthurian Romance gamebook, because I would want it to be enjoyable by as many people as possible who are interested (obviously, who says "I want nobody to play my game"?). Pendragon already exists and the original myths ain't going anywhere.

      WFRP 2E came out in 2005 and they said "Bretonnia is a misogynistic hell society, you're meant to push against it and wear disguises or whatever, but if that's not fun for your players ignore that aspect of the setting", and I don't think Bretonnia's mega-sexism meaningfully contributes much to setting's identity such that if you removed it, the game would be ruined over it. Similarly, I question the motivations of someone who would be sincerely alienated by these decisions, and think that's kind of an inner beast they need to wrangle with at some point.

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    6. This is long and I'm sorry I don't have time to comment more fully. Two things:

      1 - I brough up the Kirk/Uhura kiss precisely because the producers *thought* there would be big push-back against it. They wanted to do it anyway because of the context which you describe. But actually there was basically no push-back at all. This is because, I think, most people at the time recognised that the motives were sincere.

      2 - Warner Bros is also hypocritical, yes. The idea that 'permanently vaulting this thing would be bad because it would be like disavowing responsibility' is, to be charitable, horse manure logic. The same applies to Disney, which does the same thing. These companies, plainly and simply, want to have their cake and eat it. Especially in the case of Disney the entire model of Disney+ would be blown out of the water if they actually had the courage of their convictions and behaved as though they meant what they said.

      Regarding the 'realism' debate, you're on a hiding to nothing in trying to make the case either way. This is really just a matter of taste. Do you want the setting in which you are playing to *feel* realistic, or would you prefer it to be diverse in the way you want it to be? This is not an argument that gets settled by logic.

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    7. 1E WFRP Bretonnia was a bit different from 2E: it was more of a "seedy" three musketeers.
      I've never had a problem with "Oh, that is Princess Flavia, she does whatever she likes" style exceptions.

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  9. What we need today in this hobby is a serious debate about whether it's ethical or not, historically correct or not, true to Tolkien or not, adequately diverse or not, or even imaginable, to play a dark-skinned lesbian halfling in a game of Dungeons & Dragons.

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    1. Maybe in Dark Sun? Oh who am I kidding, people who want to showcase all their dark skinned lesbian halflings would never play Dark Sun because its too dark. Too much slavery and injustice going on.

      ....you'd think it would want to make people play it MORE to CORRECT it but that's apparently not the taste of the 'modern audience' I'm told.

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  10. Point 2b, about "medieval" fantasy societies needing to have "verisimilitude," doesn't hold water. Most gamers, like most people, do not really know much about history beyond perhaps a few pet topics, as the comments above demonstrate. There have been very different kinds of societies in different places and times, even just in the "Middle Ages." Any of them can serve as a template for fantasy. More to the point, there is no reason not to imagine a fantasy world as one wants. It's imaginary and an exercise in creativity. There is no "default" state of historical realism in fantasy, no correct position with respect to an unspecified historical "reality." I find it strange that you call it "unfair" to object that fantasy is what we make it, and then to back it up by saying that tastes vary. ("Unfair" to whom? To you?) We know that tastes vary, because this debate exists, but it's not "unfair" to imagine a fantasy differently from you or me.

    Much of the debate about representation seems to be about art in commercial game products, not game rules. People who feel put off by some art in a game book don't have to buy the book. They can also declare that their fantasy setting is less "diverse" than the game art shows or that it is more "diverse" than the game art shows. There is no rule that says you have to imagine your game as the artists depicted it in the product.

    I'm all for bridging divides, as you are attempting here. I just don't think this is a divide that can be reasoned with. This is people policing each other's imaginations out of cultural and political impulses. I agree with you that they tend to do this uncharitably, without regard for different experiences, but I suspect that's the point of it, not an accidental failing.

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    1. The immersion breakage does not occur primarily because of any particular historical anachronism, which fantasy is rife with if one cares to look, but because of a deeper thematic disconnect. The sincere escapist is rudely awakened by political propaganda rooted in the immediacy of the now, the purpose of the media he is consuming becomes glaringly obvious.

      The purpose of diversity in this art has nothing to do with the facilitation of escapism, but with the promulgation of a political message. The skilled precursors of the propagandists of the today would seamlessly weld the message to the source material. The audience would absorb its themes, often subconsciously while also enjoying the material. It is only because of the incompetence, arrogance and self-defeating evil of the current regime that they can no longer even imagine how to make something that is appealing.

      The argument 'why do you care about realism' is false because the entire discussion is conducted on false grounds. The propagandist has nothing in common with the sincere consumer, and does not believe in immersion, he is incapable of seeing such material as anything but a vehicle for the promulgation of a political message, but pretends to do otherwise, maliciously. This is why such discussion is pointless, as are discussions about orcs being racist. There is nothing to discuss. The fundamental assumptions of the propagandist render him incapable of viewing any such discussion as a political battle, to be won by methods fair and foul, and he is incapable of being swayed.

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    2. It sounds like some aspects of modern culture and politics bother you enough to break your immersion when you are playing D&D. My friendly suggestion is that you play the games you like to play and avoid the stuff that ruffles your feathers if it's a sensitive topic for you. You sound stressed out, to be honest, unless you're just writing dramatically for fun. What's the evil regime?

      Anyway, I didn't ask, "Why does anybody care about realism?" I said that most gamers who do want historical realism have only a vague and particular concept of what historical realism would be, so people should play fantasy games with their friends as they want, without being told by strangers that they are too "woke" or not "diverse" enough on historical grounds. The idea that D&D is supposed to replicate an idealized Middle Ages with respect to "diversity" is pretty odd to me, so both sides in the tug-of-war are beginning from false premises. If that's your idea, I agree with you: it's a pointless discussion.

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    3. You're being very vague. Who is this propagandist and what regime are they a part of? Be specific.

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    4. Tom - no doubt your last paragraph is true of some people. But I honestly don't think it's the majority. Most people in the end just want something that accords with their aesthetic (in the Kantian, not visual sense) preferences. The problem is when they treat different aesthetic preferences as being rooted in EVIL.

      EDIT - To elaborate, when I talk about aesthetics in the Kantian sense, I mean the feeling that the the product that one has bought accords with one's own ideas about what it 'should' be like. Argument number 2 in my original post speaks to that.

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    5. noisms - I hope you are right about it not being the majority. It is a problem when the differences are attributed to evil, as you say. In any case, it seems to like a lot of unnecessary fuss over how game products look, when people can imagine whatever they want, anyway. There is no rule that says, "See these pictures? That's what everything has to look like in your shared fantasy." If gamers can't imagine their fantasies differently from the art in a game book, there are bigger problems for this relatively insignificant hobby.

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    6. @Tom

      Ironic that your first paragraph is itself an expression of feigned concern, perhaps a useful illustration of the truth of the impossibility of communication.

      The tendency for nerds to complain about realism in this case is a shorthand, coming from imperfect understanding of the medium they are engaging with, and treating the woke-ification attempt as having the same goal. Their immersion into the fictional realm is broken and they complain about the disruptive elements, mistakenly treating the attempt as one meant to improve the immersive aspects of the medium. This is a category error.

      It is of course not 'people playing fantasy games as they want' but rather, 'activists and corporations pushing for the transformation of existing IPs with a non-woke fanbase to include woke elements even at ruinous cost to their shareholders and bottom line' that is the problem. The idea of a grassroots bottom-up wokefication is often not so, as a glance at the video games industry should illustrate. Any sort of fresh cultural real-estate that is woke, which is admittedly rare, does not get pushed to change its tune. The disgruntled consumer simply moves elsewhere.

      If it were bottom up and co-existence was possible then both sides would simply create whatever form best pleased them and went their merry way, but this does not occur. Instead existing cultural real-estate becomes a battleground and must be woke-ified, fans be damned. The people pushing for diversity do so because they believe at their heart that all culture must neccesarily be political and thus must be suborned in the struggle to create social and distributive justice for the good of mankind.

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    7. @Princeof

      No, I’m sincere: You sound really rattled and upset in the remarks you have made here, not to mention a little paranoid. It sounds like these things are really eating at you. I realize sincerity is probably hard to come by when your claim to fame in the "OSR blogosphere" is cutting remarks delivered with a cutesy oh-so-edgy affectation, but I *genuinely* hope you are okay, if you are not just joking around here. One technique of trolling is to say it was all a joke when the argument fails, so it's hard to tell with you sometimes. Again, sincerity.

      Equally sincerely: when you start talking about “woke-ification” of D&D, though, I can only be amazed at how thoroughly the talking points of FOX News have permeated the brains of young Europeans, who hitherto prided themselves on a degree of cultural independence. Next you’ll be crying about commies who want to force gender-changing surgery on D&D players. (That's a joke.) It is sad to see you allowed yourself to be brainwashed by an anger-coated niche of American media that makes money by manufacturing outrage like what we see in the comments here. The good news is that you can clear your head of this media nonsense, and know that the "evil" "current regime" (whatever that is) is not going to take away your power to play D&D just as you like it. There is no rule in any edition that you have to imagine D&D the way the artists of the moment make it look. If you think otherwise, then... well, see paragraph one. Happy gaming!

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  11. There is no 'good faith' argument from the so-called diversity people because their conception of it and indeed the very term itself, is utopian nonsense pushed by neoliberal bullshit, corporations out for money and the general nonsense born of 20th/21st century Western urbanism and melting pot theories.

    None of this make sense in ANY setting which draws from more historical roots and is basically little more than an attempt at historical revisionism for the sake of hurt feelings and to soothe the ego of people who are so self centered they have to make fictional worlds reflect their petty, small minds. There is a massive fucking world of difference between that melting pot nonsense applied to a pre-modern society and historical exchanges of cultures, not to mention that these people tend to have very shallow understanding of history and historical cultures.

    What they basically want and produce is a grey sludge of modernity which actually does a total disservice to the long, storied, complicated, messy but also beautiful history of human cultures from around the globe across the various eras of history. History, culture and mythology simply does not and CANNOT reflect the sensibilities of a 21st century urbanite western person who has become uprooted from his/her true cultural roots and has chosen to wear a shallow cloak of 'diversity' in order to feel special and police the thoughts and imagination of others.

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  12. I will say, as a grognard, when we were young pre-teens, we would accept anyone who wanted to play D&D with us, no matter their race, religion, sex, age, etc. We just wanted to play, but it was mostly young white males, in those days, that wanted to play D&D, being interested in fantasy and science fiction stories. We were not purposefully exclusionary, that was just who wanted to play. I personally do not want politics in my games, and play with a quasi-realistic medieval adventure with the world working the way it did in those days, but adding in fantasy races and creatures.

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    1. That's exactly my experience.

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    2. I never wrote down or spelled out a rule of 'no black people' at my table. It simply occurred because that's just how demographics and interests worked out, especially in the late '90s and early 2000s. Nerd stuff was for white kids, especially white male kids. Sports and the early popular 'dudebro videogames' was for the popular kids and what was popular transcended the racial barriers.

      TTRPG and nerd shit wasn't popular, so it didn't transcend those barriers. Its not that we excluded anybody, its that nobody we knew of a different race ever came to us or let alone even shared a tiny iota of being interested in ttrpg and nerdy fantasy shit, so we never bothered to ask them. Especially having grown in a black heavy neighborhood I thought I was doing them a favor: black kids hanging with white kids, especially unpopular/nerdy ones, was a death sentence for their social standing. Maybe had we met the right person with shared interests, maybe that person could have joined us. But it didn't happen because that wasn't how social groups functioned at the turn of the millenium.

      We were unpopular nerds, so nobody wanted to join us.

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  13. I think to an extent this argument comes down to seeing yourself as a consumer, and then seeing what you consume as being very important. It becomes a way of expressing your ethical stances, and therefore it becomes important to know that the things you consume are good by your standards.

    I think of course, there's something to this, but I think taking it into the realm of trivial hobbies and entertainments is to me sort of infantile. I mean, sweatshops are one thing, but choosing Paizo over WOTC because one has a better quality disclaimer is silly (yeah, my man is made of straw, but this sort of discussion goes on).

    I think if you were really strictly consistent about this sort of thing I'd find it a very respectable ethical framework, to really insist on ethical standards from the people you do business with. But I find it's not really consistently applied at all, and people trot out the "no ethical consumption" line far too readily when challenged on it.

    I'm working to absolutely stop thinking of myself as a consumer. I viscerally hate that kind of language (referring to art as "IP" makes my skin crawl, as well as referring to something like LOTR as a "franchise", just yuck) and so I feel pretty distant from these conversations I see going on. But I agree about the visceral reaction to hypocrisy. I don't care who owns D&D really because D&D for me is more than an IP and brand, and I'm happy for Elon Musk to waste his money on that if that's important to him.

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  14. I don't know. First, those saying that nobody is caring about this might be shy of the facts. Here in the States, we just had an election that has continued to send shockwaves, especially because of who voted how against the usual trends. Many say it was less a love for those who won as a repudiation of those who lost. And for no small reason when asked, many have said it's this sort of thing. A sort of 21st Century post-modern McCarthyism. It's not about diversity at all. It's a new way of seeing the world that has its own good guys and own villains, and doesn't really allow for debate. When looking at the examples of this sort of thing, such as the one example being touched on here, there is no offering of anything but rank condemnation, contempt and an intolerance for people whose main sin appears to be failing to live in the present of today. As if we are the ones who have a right to so judge the past, given an endless list of issues outside our own windows. Whether the backlash continues, or enough people eat this up with a spoon to encourage companies to continue the same judgementalism against the past, we'll have to see.

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