Not often, but sometimes, you come across people in RPG circles who almost bemoan creativity - as though it is a dangerous thing and the less of it the better.
Typically the argument goes something like this: "I don't want a weird exotic super-imaginative setting or module. My players won't read it or engage with it and it will be too difficult to pull off. Just give me something I can use at the table!"
Something I can use at the table is the lowest common denominator of the RPG hobby. I think what these people mean is that they want adventure modules that can be played out of the book with minimum fuss and don't put up any hurdles to accessibility for the average non-DMing player weaned on Tolkien, Weiss & Hickman and maybe at a push Steven Erikson. "I just want to have some fun," the implication seems to be. "Kill some orcs and steal some treasure over beer and pretzels!"
I can completely accept that accessibility and usefulness are virtues. We all have time pressures. Prepping for a game each week takes time. But "something I can use at the table" is such a trivially low bar that I have to question why anybody would want to pay money to anybody else for producing it. The length of time it takes to read and familiarize oneself with 36 pages of "something I can use at the table" is surely longer than the amount of time it takes to draw some squares and circles on a piece of paper and go "Orc guarding treasure here, goblins here, poison gas trap here, dragon there" - am I wrong? In other words, why are you looking for "something you can use at the table" to pay money for when it is trivially easy to make it up for yourself and spend your money on booze?
Don't misunderstand me. Killing orcs and stealing treasure in a dungeon is great. But in what universe does it make sense to pay actual money to another person to come up with it?
If I am paying money for an RPG product I want to pay for something I could not have come up with myself in any reasonable time frame. Usefulness is almost secondary - I can do useful. What I can't do is Deep Carbon Observatory. No? Am I missing something?
Are you possibly conflating two separate complaints? I want RPG resources that give me material which is immediately and directly useful in play - something I can use at the table. I despise resources that give me screeds of history and broad-brush description, but leave it up to me to write and design everything that my players will actually interact with. I much prefer a flavourful, exotic and interesting dungeon crawl, elements of which I can then build upon and extrapolate in my own way, to a gazetteer which lays out a setting, however interesting and unique, and then fails to deliver any actual game material, as if the writer is a Muse leaving the actual work to mortals like myself. Deep Carbon Observatory is on my good list, for example. I know that isn't the point of your argument, but "something I can use at the table" doesn't necessarily mean something uncreative or boring.
ReplyDeleteI think John is on the right path here - "something I can use at the table" doesn't have to mean stupid-easy and unoriginal, it just means the DM should be able to read through it and then run the supplement with minimal amount of prep on his or her part.
DeleteComing up with your own adventures takes time and requires a degree of creativity that doesn't come naturally to everyone. A DM in that situation may buy an adventure to essentially offload that workload (in time and creativity) to someone else.
The problem arises when a supplement (especially one that is marketed as an "adventure") is really just 36 pages of the author writing up Mary-Sue characters, coming up with trivial background info, and detailing the encyclopedic history of the Duchy of Whocares.
In that case, the time-constrained and creatively-challenged DM just paid money for something that doesn't solve their problem in the first place: a creative, fleshed-out adventure.
==I want RPG resources that give me material which is immediately and directly useful in play ... Deep Carbon Observatory is on my good list, for example.
DeleteThat is moronic. You would have to read DCO from beginning to end before using it.
In my experience those like Zak Smith and his cronies who whine about rpg material not being "useful at the table" are people who are incapable of reading material and abstracting information themselves. And only idiots confuse this with material which has nothing worth abstracting. So we have a bunch of shitbrains like those at the Knights & Knaves Alehouse who sneer at anything that looks different to the TSR modules which stopped serving their purpose in 1979.
There is nothing wrong with gaming supplements which must be read, wholly, and which require thinking and notes to be taken before play. In fact all other formats appear childish to me.
John - I think you are right in the sense that "something I can use at the table" is a bit ambiguous. I can use The Lord of the Rings, or Viriconium, or whatever, at the table, in the sense that I could ultimately make a campaign out of that material, but it would require a lot of work.
DeleteSimilarly, I can use Tekumel at the table, but again - it would require a lot of work to get to the table in the first place.
The way I usually interpret that sort of phrase when I hear/read it is that the person making the argument wants something they can use more or less straight away. You buy it, open it up, and hey presto, it's usable in a game session.
@Kent I always read a product before using it. The difference between DCO and a gazetteer is that DCO is actual game material and does not require further work by myself (except some light highlighting, the writing style is not to my liking) before I can run it.
DeleteIf I just want material from which to abstract ideas, I can do better than the writers of RPG supplements, who in general are no authors. And although a game which the DM has thought up him or herself is superior to one got out of a box, other forms of entertainment like books or film don't exclusively consist of deeply thought-out classics, yet we still enjoy them. Given the time constraints facing many DMs, it's nothing but petulant to insist that they all should devote considerable work to a leisure activity even though a less prepared game can still be quite enjoyable. That work being not just reading and taking notes, as you imply, but essentially writing all the parts of the adventure their players actually interact with in the case of the more abstract supplements.
Moreover, any way you slice it, coming up with interesting in-game material is a major part of the workload of being DM. I take inspiration from the minutiae of published adventures, and steal material to rewrite to fit my own games. I don't want to manufacture countless details in accordance with someone else's vision; I want a supply of details I can modify to match my own.
OK, let's put it down to miscommunication which is commonplace where there is nothing at stake.
DeleteMy contempt is honed on those, like (but not exclusively) the Knights & Knaves Alehouse Shitbrains, who persist within a TSR safespace bubble from 1979, and who describe D&D invention that is not derivative and remedial as "a novel" as if there were no difference between a Dragonlance novel and The Worm Ouroboros.
The gremlins at K&KA typify the 99% of D&Ders who are confused and drowning (and angry) when not presented with a 1979 TSR safespace dungeon map, and with religious puritanism describe anyone who does not distribute the Gygax sanctioned monsters from the MM onto a standard dungeon grid as "sexual perverts".
To the dismay of sane D&D gamers (like me) we are squeezed between the D&D forums of mindless grinning 1979 clones and the cult of personality tyrants, with their bollock licking lieutenants (who also have shit to sell) and the anus licking crowd of dull consumers who have fuck nothing to offer. James Raggi and Zak Smith ? are you fucking kidding. That is the best has been produced recently ? Shame on you.
DeleteI think you're right Kent, but what's your solution? And what do you think is the best that's come out of the last 15 years or so?
Deletewe all know Kent is insane, but who is this Owen dickhead?
DeleteKent, that's three comments of almost nothing but bitching. I don't care about your issues with Zak or KK&A or whoever. If you're unhappy with the current state of D&D, your time is better spent writing the sort of material you'd like to see rather than complaining about what already exists.
DeleteJohn, hear hear.
DeleteOwen is somebody with an interesting blog by the looks of things. I think Kent is half right insofar as K&KA and Dragonsfoot go. The quasi-religious puritanism of many of the posters on those places is really odd. I remember reading a forum thread on K&KA years ago in which a former TSR employee - a very nice polite person involved in 2nd edition - was more or less being metaphorically flayed alive for daring to suggest Zeb Cook isn't actually all that bad a guy. It was like watching the two minutes hate.
==I think you're right Kent, but what's your solution?
DeleteThere is no solution. It's far too late. As soon as the egomaniacs (Raggi, Zak Smith et al.) scented dollars back in 2009/2010 it was too late. They carved out safespaces for themselves to be adored. The fledgling community grew by attracting in gullible consumers and shit content publishers rather than arty brainy hobbyists who have no interest in interacting with low calibre people. Personally I enjoy a good scoff.
==And what do you think is the best that's come out of the last 15 years or so?
I used to think Carcosa was very good but when it came out it coincided with my reading CA Smith for the first time and I think my enthusiasm for both bleed into each other. Now, Im not so impressed with CA Smith or Carcosa.
I would say Melan's D&D campaign journals on Dragonsfoot are probably the best thing Ive read.
Again Kent, I think you're right, but like John says there's no point shitting all over everything unless you're willing to tell us how it could be better. Thank you for recommending the campaign journals.
DeleteAnd Zak, I'll remember to get your permission in triplicate before commenting again... a thousand pardons my liege!!
==Thank you for recommending the campaign journals.
DeleteThe ones written by 'premier' are best. Premier was a player.
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=34856
==there's no point shitting all over everything unless you're willing to tell us how it could be better
Delete'Better' is what smart people are doing, keep your D&D gaming thoughts offline and in real life.
But I'm wrong - there is some use in diagnosing a problem, even if you haven't got a solution.
DeleteSo what you are saying is "Deep Carbon Observatory is not useful."
ReplyDeleteThat begs the question, why have it if you can't use it? ("Because it inspires me!" is a valid answer. But that is you being useful, which you can already do.)
It requires work of you to run it - and that's no bad thing. It's not *immediately* useful, but fantastic once you work with it.
DeleteWhat Luke said. You can't just pick DCO up and run it off the bat. You have to read it all first and think about it a bit. It's not that it's not useful - it's just not useful right off the bat. (Except as inspiration.)
DeleteWith all due respect, I got rather more use-value out of the old "Book of Lairs" than I'll likely ever get from Yoon-Suin. I do loves me some procedurally generated opium smoking slug-men, but they are close to impossible to integrate into my ongoing campaign. Likewise for Deep Carbon Observatory or Zak's stuff. They are great for inspiration, or to use as-is, but they don't exactly play well with others.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds like a challenge. I'll have to write a Book of Lairs now.
DeleteBy all means do, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. The ACKS guys are supposed to have a re-make in the pipe, but it's overdue and has been very quiet.
DeleteThing is, there is a middle ground between generic "Orc guarding treasure here" and the creative weirdness the OSR likes to come up with. It may be more craft than art, but it's actually not trivial to do well, imo.
A good example is Rob Conley / BatInTheAttic's Scourge of the Demon Wolf. Uses a sparse selection of standard fantasy trappings, but arranges them well. Easy to slot into any campaign. Easy to spice up with sex, drugs, and Cthulhu references as well. Because the substance of it is solid. Not art, but really good craftsmanship.
Book of Lairs is _sooooo_ bad.
DeleteThere's an ogre!
He's in.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................a cave,
Haha. All the more reason for me to do a good version then.
Delete@Jorunkun
DeleteThe ACKS Lairs & Encounters book did finally get released a bit ago. I've skimmed through it. The prebuilt lairs do contain a few "ogre in room" entries, but some are kind of interesting and novel.
"who almost bemoan creativity"
ReplyDeleteDid not happen. The relevant part of the conversation was about one very specific rpg product, than happens to be creative.
"I think what these people mean..."
"...the implication seems to be."
You could have asked, instead of making (probably-wrong) assumptions. Asking == potential gain for everyone.
"These people" are actually quite nice, generally approachable, and willing to have a conversation.
Not everything in the world revolves around K&KA. The "give me something I can use!" thing is a comment I've seen crop up time and again on various forums ever since I've been reading online stuff about RPGs. I've never understood it.
DeleteSo some instances should be easy to find, yeah? Ones where people actually bemoan creativity as though it is a dangerous thing and the less of it the better? Ones where people actually say they want a squares & circles map with "Orc guarding treasure here, goblins here, poison gas trap here, dragon there" (or thereabouts)?
DeleteBecause if you want a discussion _really_ about "give me something I can use," and what can facilitates that, I'd sincerely like to have that conversation with you or anyone else.
DeleteJesus - just visit rpg.net or therpgsite. You'll find instances of it soon enough. Getting evidence so I can win some idiotic internet argument with you isn't massively high on my list of priorities, frankly. I consider the matter closed, now.
DeleteI'm a bit on both sides here. I generally like settings of broad strokes where I can use my creativity and fill in the blanks. But I can see the appeal of just having everything in a slim book ready for a quick session or two of play. Some days, I have the mental energy to be creative and get an adventure going. Other days, usually the weekends where I work doubles and we get slammed in the kitchen, I'm simply too tired to come up with anything. So it's nice to have something I can read and run.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I think there are two things that are important for running a module or adventure path. Firstly, you really have to read it in its entirety. Whether it's Deep Carbon Observatory or Rise of the Runelords, reading the module cover to cover is necessary so you don't stop in the middle of the game to check stuff. No matter the game, some amount of prep and effort is required. Even when I do off-the-cuff one shot session, I still at least write up some index cards. Secondly, I feel GMs can get lazy when it comes to pre-published adventures and prep. I've seen GMs just read as they run, or mindlessly follow the module without making any rulings about player actions. Even with a simple Free RPG one shot, you can't really go on autopilot and expect the adventure to do everything for you. Modules and adventure paths are there to do the hard stuff for a GM. Stats, story, setting, scenarios... but as a GM, you still have to make rulings and roll with the punches.
For accessible books, I like two types. I like plug and play books that give you examples of NPCs, organizations, and locations. I always love me a Monster Manual and get excited when Paizo releases a new Bestiary. The second type are the toolkit books, where it's just a giant tome of ideas and random generators that excite creativity and require some assembly, but still give great ideas.
Yes, that thing about reading the whole book and prepping some index cards or other notes is crucial for me too, which is why I wonder whether it isn't just as fast to come up with your own things? (Except if you are lacking mental energy, which is fair enough - a pre-written adventure is always more convenient in that respect.)
DeleteThere are so many different levels of players, and so many different directions. You've got novice (the hardest market to nail unless you are corporate)to the very advanced (another hard market get because they want very little). Then you have styles, be it random players that can't get enough crazy lists, traditionalists that are happy with sticking to mega-dungeons, Role Players that love culture, Hack-n-slashers that want mechanics, you name it, there is a subreddit for it, and typically the biggest discussions are the ones dissing the other subreddits.
ReplyDeleteAt it's heart, we are all playing the same game, but we are convinced that we aren't. We all play in different ways, and you are always going to have those people that just don't get it.
You are a brave soul, Noisms. You put yourself out there and that is never an easy thing to do. Just know that we, the quiet majority, are behind you, and all of those idiots fueled by jealousy and insecurity can just get their heads soaked.
Thanks mate!
DeleteFor me, 'something I can use at the table' is more about the structure and form than the flavour of the content. Even if it is just the sort of 'orc dungeon' that I could throw together in 15 minutes, it is capable of being presented in different ways, some more immediately useful than others.
ReplyDeleteBy co-incidence, Courtney Campbell's latest post on 'set design' - described as the 'stat block' for the 'exploration phase' is a good example of thinking about how material can be more 'usable at the table'.
DeleteIn lots of adventures it isn't even 'boxed text', which at least serves an immediate game purpose, but lots and lots of text hiding the details and moving parts of the adventure.
So, with Yoon-Suin, it is not it's deviation from vanilla fantasy that matters, it is whether the material is presented in a game-able format. And it is!
Yeah, that set design thing is interesting.
Delete"Not often, but sometimes, you come across people in RPG circles who almost bemoan creativity - as though it is a dangerous thing and the less of it the better."
ReplyDeletePure resentment - sour grapes on the part of uncreative people.
It's far more common to come across people in RPG circles who imagine themselves as especially creative, but are barely average with too much time on their hands.
Delete